Earlier quoted context omitted.
A liberal secular state must respect the will of its citizenry, whatever it is. It must also suppress violent sedition with violence. Expressing that responsibility as suppressing religion per se is counterproductive
> A liberal secular state must respect the will of its citizenry, whatever it is No. A tolerant, secular, liberal state should not respect the will of its people if the will of (the majority of) its people is to become an intolerant, religious, oppressive state. It is OK -- possibly even necessary -- to have a set of core founding principals which must never be abandoned.
Notes on Tajikistan
141–150 of 412 posts
Re: Notes on Tajikistan
#142Earlier quoted context omitted.
What does 'it' refer to here? Which islamic school and what branch of that school? Some do call for violence, others don't.
The scripture, as such, does not. Interpretations of it may.
Again, denying the problem exists does not make it go away and actually makes it harder for those who wish to reform islam.
Re: Notes on Tajikistan
#143An amazing place. I visited twice about 15 years ago and have many fond memories of it, but mostly when I think about it I'm filled with sadness, because the people there deserve so much better. They're constantly knee-deep in corruption, both street level and just the very blatant kleptocratic presidential family. There's a lot of ethnic Russians, both expat workers and ones that didn't manage to leave after the col…
[flagged]
Re: Notes on Tajikistan
#144Earlier quoted context omitted.
The scripture, as such, does not. Interpretations of it may.
Is there anything else besides interpretation of scripture? If so, what? I gave a few examples in this thread of passages which can be interpreted - and in some cases are actually hard not to interpret - as calls to violence in the name of islam. What is your basis for claiming these are not actually such? Again, denying the problem exists does not make it go away and actually makes it harder for those who wish to re…
You seem to be arguing that the most correct interpretation of scripture is a literal one that ignores its context. If that's the case, then your hermeneutics has a lot in common with fundamentalist extremists.
Those who wish to reform Islam are not in need patronization by islamophobic memes, I assure you.
Re: Notes on Tajikistan
#145Earlier quoted context omitted.
Certainly many parts of the world aren't too big on democracy and self-determination, but from my point of view any military operation not sanctioned by the target region's people or government counts as an invasion. Maybe that's not how all the people involved saw it, but we see, judge, and name events through the lens of our own values.
[flagged]
Re: Notes on Tajikistan
#146Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's always funny to me how facts about previous allegiance are withheld with impunity, apparently in hopes to confuse a distracted reader. I can forgive people for forgetting to mention that Baltic states were part of Russia for centuries before they were re-annexed by the USSR in 1945. Indeed I can see how people had 20 years of independence and weren't fans of being included into a socialist utopia. But, just yest…
"re-annexed" Wrong word. "In Nystad, King Frederick I of Sweden formally recognized the transfer of Estonia, Livonia, Ingria, and Southeast Finland (Kexholms län and part of Karelian Isthmus) to Russia in exchange for two million silver thaler, while Russia returned the bulk of Finland to Swedish rule." [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Nystad
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tartu_(Estonia%E2%80...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvian%E2%80%93Soviet_Peace_T...
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet%E2%80%93Lithuanian_Peac...
Re: Notes on Tajikistan
#147An amazing place. I visited twice about 15 years ago and have many fond memories of it, but mostly when I think about it I'm filled with sadness, because the people there deserve so much better. They're constantly knee-deep in corruption, both street level and just the very blatant kleptocratic presidential family. There's a lot of ethnic Russians, both expat workers and ones that didn't manage to leave after the col…
[flagged]
Re: Notes on Tajikistan
#148Earlier quoted context omitted.
Is there anything else besides interpretation of scripture? If so, what? I gave a few examples in this thread of passages which can be interpreted - and in some cases are actually hard not to interpret - as calls to violence in the name of islam. What is your basis for claiming these are not actually such? Again, denying the problem exists does not make it go away and actually makes it harder for those who wish to re…
The point here is that scripture doesn't make claims. People do. Scripture is not a person. You seem to be arguing that the most correct interpretation of scripture is a literal one that ignores its context. If that's the case, then your hermeneutics has a lot in common with fundamentalist extremists. Those who wish to reform Islam are not in need patronization by islamophobic memes, I assure you.
No, I'm arguing that scripture can be interpreted in many ways and that some of those ways lead to people believing it calls upon them to commit violence in the name of their religion. I'm also claiming that the absence of a central authority or a 'leading interpretation' of islamic scripture leads to such interpretations being no less 'correct' than interpretations which take a different path.
> Those who wish to reform Islam are not in need patronization by islamophobic memes, I assure you.
I am not assured by your claims nor by your use of unsubstantiated claims of some phobia. Here's Maajid Nawaz (someone who attempts to reform islam) on the subject you try to downplay or ignore:
https://www.smh.com.au/national/we-need-to-talk-about-islam-...
Some excerpts for those who don't want to follow random links:
People in the West are reluctant to discuss Islamism because they are frightened of being portrayed as racist, according to Maajid Nawaz, a British politician and former extremist who spent five years in an Egyptian jail.
...
"Language can destroy Islamist ideas and propaganda," he said. "But we've got to be able to name exactly what it is that we're talking about. That's where I'm critical of President Obama, because he's unable to name the problem – and if you if cannot name something, then you cannot critique it.
...
"To say this problem has nothing to do with Islam leaves nothing to be discussed within the communities. ... The truth is in the middle: it's got something to do with Islam – not everything, not nothing, but something."
...
The key, he said, lay in the way in which Islamist ideologues hijack parts of the faith's scriptures and reinterpret them to support their political stance. It is critical for Islamic communities to discuss this process and, by so doing, "reclaim their religion from those who use it to justify terrorism. I would encourage everyone to engage in this conversation, not to shut it down," he said.
...
"If you don't have this conversation, only the Islamist extremists prevail. Because by shutting down debate, by shutting down thought, people become closed-minded, and only fascism and theocracy benefit from closed-mindedness."
Re: Notes on Tajikistan
#149Earlier quoted context omitted.
Your own link says that during the revolution of 1911 in China local theocracy seized power in Tibet and held to it for 40 years. "After the Xinhai Revolution in 1911, most of the area comprising the present-day Tibet Autonomous Region (TAR) became a de facto independent polity, independent from the rest of the Republic of China" "At the time Political Tibet obtained de facto independence, its socio-economic and poli…
It's always funny to me how facts about previous allegiance are withheld with impunity, apparently in hopes to confuse a distracted reader. I can forgive people for forgetting to mention that Baltic states were part of Russia for centuries before they were re-annexed by the USSR in 1945. Indeed I can see how people had 20 years of independence and weren't fans of being included into a socialist utopia. But, just yest…
There's fair bit more history than the 20 years of independence squished by Russians in 1940. Finland, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania were always very distinct from Russia in religion, language, culture, education and other key areas. A good example of this are literacy rates in European part of Russian empire recorded during 1897 census.[1] Even two centuries later, the effect of protestantism and the trace of school system established by Sweden is clearly visible. Moreover, Estonia and Latvia weren't even ruled by Russians, but by Baltic German nobility, and the main language used in administrative affairs was German.
Likewise, to portray Georgia as a mere "province of Russian Empire" is ridiculous given that they are so distinct that you cannot even read what they write, because they use a different alphabet. Finland or Georgia are no more "a part of Russia" than than Egypt and India are characterized by labeling them as "former British provinces" (with a subtext that they belong to Britain).
Re: Notes on Tajikistan
#150Earlier quoted context omitted.
"its numerous armed conflicts with its neighbors in recent history" So which country has China invaded in the recent history? Bringing up events that happened more than hundred years ago looks strange.
You keep referring to the outliers in these citations rather than referring to the ones that clearly make the point. You have done this twice already in this chain, so I do not think any number of citations will satisfy you, since you will just ignore the ones that you do not agree with.
Ahhhh, anti-China narrative is not working! China is evil, my western propaganda won't lie!