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Anti-Cheat Expert: all your pixels are belong to us

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Re: Anti-Cheat Expert: all your pixels are belong to us

#141

Post by BearOso »

ack_complete wrote: post #103
BearOso wrote: post #7

The screenshot function pointed in the article out will only be able to take screenshots on older versions of Windows with no compositor, i.e. the ones that draw directly to the scan-out framebuffer. That's why he found it's not used anywhere--it's obsolete.

No, this works fine even on current versions of Windows that can only run with the compositor, as the DWM special-cases blits from a display DC or GetDC(0). It will even switch windows out of independent flip if necessary to do this, which can be seen with PresentMon.

Interesting. When I think about this, of course Microsoft would go to those lengths to maintain backward compatibility.

Re: Anti-Cheat Expert: all your pixels are belong to us

#142

Post by Joel_Mckay »

yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #108
Joel_Mckay wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The admin process differs between companies. Usually if you can verify you are a different person living at a different address, than IT support might remove the flagged signature with proof of sale. I wouldn't count on the admins mercy though, as cheats will often set up shilling-circles or cloud-instances to try to get around bans. I think 2 strikes is quite reasonable to remove people breaking the game for other u…

> The admin process differs between companies. Usually if you can verify you are a different person living at a different address, than IT support might remove the flagged signature with proof of sale. I wouldn't count on the admins mercy though, as cheats will often set up shilling-circles or cloud-instances to try to get around bans. I'm glad we agree that this is unreliable and therefore not a defense of the appro…

"Okay, so I buy a card I can actually afford on eBay, put it in my machine, buy a game, and get my account permabanned."

One would have to prove they are a different person/account-location to IT admin support. It is rare, but some companies will simply watch your game-play for a bit to see what you are up to compared to the prior ban details. Note one will likely have to gamble on the compassion of each firms IT admins.

"What refund am I asking for that makes this okay?"

These sellers are almost always knowingly trying to evade the consequences of their behavior, and trying to recoup their money to buy un-flagged hardware. This is pointless, as there are several anti-cheat queries companies can run, and like any antisocial behavior they usually just make the situation worse for themselves by contaminating the market with more flagged hardware. Eventually their sellers reputation score will warn buyers what they are doing.

Getting a refund for the "broken" equipment is a standard ebay RMA process, and Craigslist/meta-Marketplace returns can be a bit more complex.

Keep in mind a ban may eventually lift after 12 months, but IT admins may be less convinced of your intent if a user keeps popping up as a problem.

"This reads as condescending"

It is not my call what companies do with problematic users. And MTG events also bans cheats for marked decks, and pulling unfair tricks that violate the rules. The difference is people will be upset with such antics at the same table. Personally I prefer the Royal Game of Ur over tea, and am always keen to share a good laugh with folks interested in such classics.

if one chooses to be miserable/upset, than that is their right too... But it doesn't sound like much fun. =3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZskjLq040I

Re: Anti-Cheat Expert: all your pixels are belong to us

#143

Post by gaudystead »

skrebbel wrote: post #91

I’m not much of a gamer, but my kids are growing up and will soon want to play the real stuff. Is there any easy way to see whether a game requires anti-cheat to run? I’d hate to spend top dollar on a game only to find it’ll take over their entire computer and I’ll want to make a hard rule “no games with kernel level anti cheat in this house” or something like that.

"BUT DAAaaaAAAaaaAAD! Tommy's parents let _him_ install invasive software on _his_ computer, and they're a doctor and a lawyer, so they seem really smart!"

Re: Anti-Cheat Expert: all your pixels are belong to us

#144

Post by ack_complete »

BearOso wrote: post #141
ack_complete wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, this works fine even on current versions of Windows that can only run with the compositor, as the DWM special-cases blits from a display DC or GetDC(0). It will even switch windows out of independent flip if necessary to do this, which can be seen with PresentMon.

Interesting. When I think about this, of course Microsoft would go to those lengths to maintain backward compatibility.

Well, it's more basic functionality than backwards compatibility. There was no other API to capture the screen from Vista to Windows 8, and not being able to programmatically take screenshots wouldn't have been viable. The newer DXGI Output Duplication API wasn't added until 8.1 and that still requires the DWM to change its composition strategy when active.

Re: Anti-Cheat Expert: all your pixels are belong to us

#145

Post by wizzwizz4 »

Joel_Mckay wrote: post #142
yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The admin process differs between companies. Usually if you can verify you are a different person living at a different address, than IT support might remove the flagged signature with proof of sale. I wouldn't count on the admins mercy though, as cheats will often set up shilling-circles or cloud-instances to try to get around bans. I'm glad we agree that this is unreliable and therefore not a defense of the appro…

"Okay, so I buy a card I can actually afford on eBay, put it in my machine, buy a game, and get my account permabanned." One would have to prove they are a different person/account-location to IT admin support. It is rare, but some companies will simply watch your game-play for a bit to see what you are up to compared to the prior ban details. Note one will likely have to gamble on the compassion of each firms IT adm…

> Getting a refund for the "broken" equipment is a standard ebay RMA process, and Craigslist/meta-Marketplace returns can be a bit more complex.

But the equipment isn't broken: it's perfectly-functional. Some third-party putting the GPU's serial number on a naughty list is no reason to demand (nor approve) a return. Even assuming that spoofing is impossible (it's not) and the GPU was involved in illegal behaviour, why assume the seller knows that? Not everyone plays your video game.

> This is pointless, as there are several anti-cheat queries companies can run,

I'd say it's pointless because you can just instruct your computer to report a different GPU serial number. There's no reason for a cheater to replace the hardware: the only reason to replace a GPU is if it's faulty, or you want a different GPU.

> > This reads as condescending

> It is not my call what companies do with problematic users.

That too, but: what you've written reads as condescending.

> And MTG events also bans cheats for marked decks, and pulling unfair tricks that violate the rules.

Every time someone writes a criticism of the ban methods, you start defending the bans. There's some kind of miscommunication going on here.

GPU serial numbers are not a good proxy for people you want to ban. The burden of this fact should fall on the decision-makers, not everybody else. "Guilty until proven innocent" is not usually considered just.

Re: Anti-Cheat Expert: all your pixels are belong to us

#146

Post by Joel_Mckay »

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #145
Joel_Mckay wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Okay, so I buy a card I can actually afford on eBay, put it in my machine, buy a game, and get my account permabanned." One would have to prove they are a different person/account-location to IT admin support. It is rare, but some companies will simply watch your game-play for a bit to see what you are up to compared to the prior ban details. Note one will likely have to gamble on the compassion of each firms IT adm…

> Getting a refund for the "broken" equipment is a standard ebay RMA process, and Craigslist/meta-Marketplace returns can be a bit more complex. But the equipment isn't broken: it's perfectly-functional. Some third-party putting the GPU's serial number on a naughty list is no reason to demand (nor approve) a return. Even assuming that spoofing is impossible (it's not) and the GPU was involved in illegal behaviour, wh…

If one seriously violates traffic laws, than a municipality will often impound the car too. The GPU signature bans are no different in terms of community standards enforcement.

"GPU serial numbers are not a good proxy for people you want to ban"

In your opinion, and that is fine for your use-case needs. Note most habitual cheats usually lie or get aggressive when they are repeatedly busted for attempting to sneak back on the servers while under a ban. The 30% that immediately fess up at least have some integrity.

We will have to agree to disagree on whether it is morally justified. Yet it is _very_ effective at dealing with that 0.05% problem user, and is already active in many ecosystems. It would be nice seeing a better solution in action... that obviously wouldn't require DRM/rooting a users computer.

In my opinion, it is the lesser of two evils. =3

Re: Anti-Cheat Expert: all your pixels are belong to us

#147

Post by Iku_Tri »

spartanatreyu wrote: post #113
bruce343434 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience game engines just suck. How can cheats exist in a server authoritative game engine architecture? But alas, most programmers have apparently no idea what they're doing when it comes to "netcode".

> In my experience game engines just suck. How can cheats exist in a server authoritative game engine architecture? But alas, most programmers have apparently no idea what they're doing when it comes to "netcode". This comment screams: I lack understanding and am overconfident because of it. Ignoring games where all state is known to all parties (e.g. chess, racing, etc...), the fact of the matter is that servers are…

Sorry, hate to ask:

Got any recommendations I can read? Watch? Listen to? Self teaching myself at the moment and looking for more info on topics like this.

Re: Anti-Cheat Expert: all your pixels are belong to us

#148

Post by bjc »

mook wrote: post #72
bjc wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

not true, BitBlt is still able to access screen content on Win10 & 11

Specifically, it can access screen content, but not window content. As in, passing in the desktop hwnd gets you a picture, passing in a different hwnd gets you a bunch of black. At least as of when I tried it a few months ago on Windows 10.

I was curious about this so I just tested it... some windows are able to be captured and some are black

Re: Anti-Cheat Expert: all your pixels are belong to us

#149

Post by j-bos »

Levitating wrote: post #127
j-bos wrote: post #63

Anti cheat software because one needs to play with people one does not trust and so attempts to get good behavior from strangers by force. Should Magnus Carlsen have required Niemman to get a cavity search? When tons of kids have neuralink implants, should they be polygraphed before taking a spelling test? Cheating is not a technical problem, it's a people problem.

So instead of developing anticheat measures, you argue game developers should fix the human race instead?

No, I'm saying that the level of enforcement applied to a game is not proportional with the triviality of it being, a game.

Re: Anti-Cheat Expert: all your pixels are belong to us

#150

Post by j-bos »

npteljes wrote: post #115
j-bos wrote: post #63

Anti cheat software because one needs to play with people one does not trust and so attempts to get good behavior from strangers by force. Should Magnus Carlsen have required Niemman to get a cavity search? When tons of kids have neuralink implants, should they be polygraphed before taking a spelling test? Cheating is not a technical problem, it's a people problem.

I think this underestimates the problem. Yes it's a people problem, but a game doesn't have the people-means to solve it, it only has technology. >Anti cheat software because one needs to play with people one does not trust and so attempts to get good behavior from strangers by force. Same could be said about laws. Goes to show that we don't have it solved it, at all. Every single system that we have has active bad a…

I see your parallel with laws. My point is that laws force behavior in a society that we are obligated to share, whereas online games are a choice to share with certain people. The level of intrusion applied to protect a game seems over the top. Especially given many ways to enforce laws are often considered over the top, despite protecting more importent matters. If the match includes cheaters, it's a bad match.
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