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ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

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Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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> Israel really, really wants a two-state solution.

Please find one quote on the matter from one Israeli politician currently in power that doesn't directly oppose this. I'll wait.

Also, stop insisting people are racist. Neither Syria nor Jordan have killed >35,000 Palestinians in the last 5 months, so we are not currently discussing them, we're discussing the country that is doing it, today.

Edit: let me start at the very top with Netanyahu's position [0]:

> The prime minister added that “everyone knows that I am the one who for decades blocked the establishment of a Palestinian state that would endanger our existence.”

Also see this article [3] about how Netanyahu and the head of the Mossad, Barnea, have been encouraging the continued funding of Hamas specifically to achieve this goal.

And from the more moderate president [1]:

> What I want to urge is against just saying two-state solution. Why? Because there is an emotional chapter here that must be dealt with.

National security minister Ben Gvir [2]:

> The war presents an “opportunity to concentrate on encouraging the migration of the residents of Gaza,” Ben Gvir told reporters and members of his far-right Otzma Yehudit party, calling such a policy “a correct, just, moral and humane solution.”

> “We cannot withdraw from any territory we are in in the Gaza Strip. Not only do I not rule out Jewish settlement there, I believe it is also an important thing,” he said.

Finance minister Smotrich [also 2]:

> The “correct solution” to the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict is “to encourage the voluntary migration of Gaza’s residents to countries that will agree to take in the refugees,” Smotrich told members of his Religious Zionism party, predicting that “Israel will permanently control the territory of the Gaza Strip,” including through the establishment of settlements.

[0] https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-boasts-of-thwarting-...

[1] https://apnews.com/article/israel-war-hamas-herzog-president...

[2] https://www.timesofisrael.com/ministers-call-for-resettling-...

[3] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-q...

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#142
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are contradicting yourself. If the world power participation in UN is vital to its role but at the same time nothing outside the conflicted power between them then why do you think UN is more than a club of world power extended to include some people from thr outside? And what actually prevented a global conflict after the world war II is not the UN succeeding into what League of nations, it is nuclear war and MA…

> And what actually prevented a global conflict after the world war II is not the UN succeeding into what League of nations, it is nuclear war and MAD doctrine. This is wishful thinking and a history revisionism. Mathematically speaking MAD will always result in a nuclear Armageddon. People knew that and worked with the UN to prevent proliferation of Nuclear Weapons and escalation of the Nuclear Arms buildup. Without…

It was the US starting and pushing the comprehensive test ban treaty, not the UN. The UN didn't even try until the US successfully pushed it for decades. And STILL, all relevant negotiations are conducted by the US, the relevant backing organization is thoroughly US. It's physically in the US. It's staffed by US people. It's really more or less a branch of the US military, and it's equipment is almost exclusively on US military bases.

Also, the comprehensive test ban treaty is based on mathematical research. Yes, seriously. Who did that research? The US, and they shared it, which changed the calculus of nuclear weapons and allowed the treaty to happen. In fact, a US mathematician is famous for ignoring the US president in an actual meeting with him while doing this research.

Nuclear nonproliferation is a pure US project, that, if we're being honest, does not even really have the support of the US's closest allies. All countries WANT nuclear weapons, and while they cooperate with nonproliferation, they maintain nuclear weapons. That EVEN goes for France and the UK. Hell, even fucking Belgium tried (and, one might add, only stopped once they were absolutely sure they could do it). And, let's face facts: Belgium, along with 100 other countries will try to acquire nuclear weapons again if the US guarantees are violated. If Iran acquires nuclear weapons, for example. Likely, at least Japan and China are maintaining programs that at the drop of a hat, in months, can produce working nuclear weapons. And I'd be AMAZED if both of those countries aren't, at minimum, further along than Iran is. Hell, my money is that at least those two have working nuclear weapons ready. Untested, but ready. Frankly, I'd be amazed if Belgium and even Canada don't have the core of a nuclear weapon ready stashed away ready somewhere (because both countries have the infrastructure needed to produce Nuclear weapons, and they have that infrastructure IN OPERATION (for other reasons, and yes, both countries have valid reasons). Yes they say they're not using it for weapons, but the idea that they're not at minimum "at the ready" is completely absurd to me)

What did the UN do?

The UN tried to solve the Nepal situation. Nepal doesn't exist anymore.

The UN tried to solve the DRC situation. It didn't work, and hundreds of thousands to millions were massacred as a result.

The UN tried to solve the Iran/ISIS/Lebanon/Syria/... conflicts. Eventually the only thing that was solved was the US using it's remaining military force in Iraq to destroy ISIS. The other conflicts are still simmering. Nothing was solved by the UN.

The UN tried to solve the Yemen situation. Nothing was solved.

The UN tried to solve Somalia. The people they tried to protect are no longer there (and most are dead).

The UN tried to solve the Israel situation. You are constantly complaining about what happened, which can be summarized as Israel successfully protected itself with US aid.

The UN, the same people, but under the name "League of Nations" tried to prevent WW2. Germany and the US still claim their actions CAUSED WW2. I'm not sure it's 100% true, but they make a pretty good case.

Besides, it wouldn't even matter, since the UN itself is a US and Israeli project. It would fall apart, even now, without the US.

Oh and you neglect to mention "the other MAD", that also is provided by the US: the guarantee that if one country attacks another, the attacked country will receive at minimum humanitarian aid, likely military aid from the US, and sometimes direct military intervention by the US. This MAD is also a critical component of post-war peace, because many countries would win military conflicts against at least some their neighbors, and where it doesn't work (e.g. Russia) ... we see constant wars.

Your case that countries worldwide are depending and trusting the UN to protect them from military conflict is absurd.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"History did not start on Oct 7, 2023" Where should we start? When the arabs colonized the levant? or the many massacres of native jews? The wars of aggression by arabs? This conflict is awfully messy and each side has a laundry list of legitimate grievances.

Not really. It’s absurd to draw the line into ancient history of Arab’s colonizing the Levant. Early 1900s to 1948 are more reasonable given that people actually exist that lived in this time or at least meaningful records of history. The fact is the British/UN gave a bunch of land to people that wasn’t really theirs to give. Nakba happened (which is illegal to even talk about in Israel) which was already a mass geno…

How was the Nakba a genocide?

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#144

During the Falklands War there were discussions in British political circles about what death toll would be unacceptable to liberate 1,800 people from Argentine occupation and rule - a calculus on the value of human life vs geopolitical concerns, I guess. The global consensus seems to be that Israel’s current actions have become excessive - if that’s true, I wonder where the line between legitimate and illegitimate r…

This is a somewhat complex question to answer, and one that can't truly be untangled from the broader history of the I/P conflict. But the base idea is this: you can't fight terrorism with bombs. Israel's stated goals in this war don't make sense: even if they could eliminate every single Hamas (military) operative, the kind of assault they are perpetrating is obviously going to give rise to a new wave of militants,…

> For an example of how this can work, you can look at how the UK dealt with the IRA

Did the IRA kill around ten thousands of Brits in one day and kidnapped a few thousands (I'm adjusting to population size here) ? Did the IRA have the sworn objective to eliminate England? Did the IRA join forces with another terrorist organization and a superpower bent on destroying England to encircle England from all directions and join the war?

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a somewhat complex question to answer, and one that can't truly be untangled from the broader history of the I/P conflict. But the base idea is this: you can't fight terrorism with bombs. Israel's stated goals in this war don't make sense: even if they could eliminate every single Hamas (military) operative, the kind of assault they are perpetrating is obviously going to give rise to a new wave of militants,…

> For an example of how this can work, you can look at how the UK dealt with the IRA Did the IRA kill around ten thousands of Brits in one day and kidnapped a few thousands (I'm adjusting to population size here) ? Did the IRA have the sworn objective to eliminate England? Did the IRA join forces with another terrorist organization and a superpower bent on destroying England to encircle England from all directions an…

No, and neither did Hamas.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. It’s absurd to draw the line into ancient history of Arab’s colonizing the Levant. Early 1900s to 1948 are more reasonable given that people actually exist that lived in this time or at least meaningful records of history. The fact is the British/UN gave a bunch of land to people that wasn’t really theirs to give. Nakba happened (which is illegal to even talk about in Israel) which was already a mass geno…

How was the Nakba a genocide?

The word "genocide" (and many other terms) means very little nowadays. Well you can tell at least the parent isn't trying to be neutral in providing history there.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> Israel really, really wants a two-state solution. Please find one quote on the matter from one Israeli politician currently in power that doesn't directly oppose this. I'll wait. Also, stop insisting people are racist. Neither Syria nor Jordan have killed >35,000 Palestinians in the last 5 months, so we are not currently discussing them, we're discussing the country that is doing it, today. Edit: let me start at th…

[flagged]

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For an example of how this can work, you can look at how the UK dealt with the IRA Did the IRA kill around ten thousands of Brits in one day and kidnapped a few thousands (I'm adjusting to population size here) ? Did the IRA have the sworn objective to eliminate England? Did the IRA join forces with another terrorist organization and a superpower bent on destroying England to encircle England from all directions an…

No, and neither did Hamas.

Yes it did. Which events I listed are you disputing?

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your post isn't very responsive to what I wrote. Aside from seemingly ignoring the whole point of this ruling (that Israel's behavior is illegal and inexcusable, meaning the excuses you cited don't excuse the behavior), you also rehashed this: > Every country "discriminates" based on nationality; You've twisted my words: I said race, religion, or national origin, not nationality. Their national origin is Palestine. T…

Their nationality certainly is not Israeli. One could say Palestinian, or Gazan, since Hamas' rule of Gaza makes it more of a separate state in practice. If one were to take the view that neither Palestine or Gaza are states (a semantic question which I don't take a position on), then they would be stateless people with no nationality. Even if you want to make the argument that Israel is occupying (Hamas-controlled p…

> Their nationality certainly is not Israeli. One could say Palestinian, or Gazan, since Hamas' rule of Gaza makes it more of a separate state in practice. If one were to take the view that neither Palestine or Gaza are states (a semantic question which I don't take a position on), then they would be stateless people with no nationality.

Israel treating their Palestinian-born subjects as stateless would be illegal, so a decision must be made by Israel between the two options I described, with the respective consequences I described. By effectively exerting rule over Palestinians (especially in the West Bank), they have chosen the route that doesn't recognize Palestine as a country, and thus are obliged to treat Palestinian-born subjects equally to any other subjects under their rule. The fact that Israel denies citizenship to the millions of Palestinian-born subjects under their rule, is particularly gross.

> You're ignoring the role of asymmetric warfare and human shield tactics. The IDF is struggling to make progress as is, despite obvious military superiority. If they caved to demands to e.g. stay out of Rafah, then Hamas terrorists would essentially be untouchable, an noone can fight an untouchable enemy.

That, in turn, ignores that Israel's actions are still illegal. Put simply, the defense you cite isn't good enough to justify Israel's actions. They tried that defense, it did not succeed, here we are. The reason is that the laws were made with the possibility of "human shields" in mind, and they still made the actions illegal. It's not some novel occurrence excepted from the rules.

It does sucks to be IDF right now, but their lives aren't worth more than civilian Palestinian lives, and thus it is immoral for them to take many civilian lives to reduce their own risk of loss, and illegal for them to do so to the extent they have, even if it means they get to kill a terrorist in the process.

Here's the most important metric (superceding any Israeli desire): Fewer civilians will die if Israel withdraws and simply secures the border than will die if Israel invades. You don't have to trust me: An independent court actually evaluated both sides here and came to the same judgement, as described in the article we're discussing. Israel will either accept that they can't do whatever they want, up to and including genocide, just because they want to, or continue to parallel Russia's and North Korea's international pariah journey while angrily feigning ignorance and righteously pointing fingers at everyone but themselves. Probably the latter.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. It’s absurd to draw the line into ancient history of Arab’s colonizing the Levant. Early 1900s to 1948 are more reasonable given that people actually exist that lived in this time or at least meaningful records of history. The fact is the British/UN gave a bunch of land to people that wasn’t really theirs to give. Nakba happened (which is illegal to even talk about in Israel) which was already a mass geno…

How was the Nakba a genocide?

It was ethnic cleansing, violent forced displacement paired with massacres of 750,000 people. My mistake — not genocide.
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