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LPCAMM2 is a modular, repairable, upgradeable memory standard for laptops

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Re: LPCAMM2 is a modular, repairable, upgradeable memory standard for laptops

#141

Post by burutthrow1234 »

audunw wrote: post #130
Aurornis wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ugh, finally. FYI, the '2' at the end is because this isn't the first time this has been done. :) LPCAMM spec has been out for a while. LPCAMM2 is the spec for next-generation parts. Don't expect either to become mainstream. It's relatively more expensive and space-consuming to build an LPCAMM motherboard versus dropping the RAM chips directly on to the motherboard.

Not to mention putting the RAM directly on a System-in-Package chip like Apple does now. That's going to be unbeatable in terms of space and possibly have an edge when it comes to power consumption too. I wouldn't be surprised if future standards will require on-package RAM. I kind of wish we could establish a new level in the memory hierarchy. Like, just make a slot where you can add slower more power hungry DDR RAM…

This is kind of what Optane was in some incarnations (it's really terrible branding that conflates multiple technologies).

Re: LPCAMM2 is a modular, repairable, upgradeable memory standard for laptops

#142

Post by sharpshadow »

masklinn wrote: post #90
wtallis wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LPCAMM2 is a connector and form factor standard for modules carrying LPDDR type memory chips.

I assume they mean having some memory soldered and an expansion slot. I've seen laptops like that, with e.g. 8GB soldered and a sodimm slot.

That would be nice since there is a rise of CPU+RAM and even GPU I think all on one chip. Would be interesting to be able to upgrade RAM on maschines like that.

Re: LPCAMM2 is a modular, repairable, upgradeable memory standard for laptops

#144

Post by noodlesUK »

sharpshadow wrote: post #143

Would it be possible to have LPCAMM2 as external device tru thunderbolt?

No, RAM is not something that is exposed on the PCIe bus (which is what thunderbolt is based on). RAM has a different protocol (DDR5 in this case), and as it says in the article, is very sensitive to the distance between the CPU and the RAM. External RAM isn't really something that is viable in the modern era of computers as far as I know.

Re: LPCAMM2 is a modular, repairable, upgradeable memory standard for laptops

#145

Post by farmdve »

zamadatix wrote: post #35
farmdve wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I said to the comment above, it makes perfect sense. In 2014 we purchased a dual core Haswell. Almost a decade later I revive the laptop by installing more ram, an SSD and the best possible quad core CPU for that laptop. The gain in processing power were massive and made the laptop useable again.

I'm sure it's all subjective (e.g. I'm sure someone here even considers the original dual core Haswell more than fine without upgrade in 2024) but going from a dual core Haswell to a quad core Haswell (or even a generation or two beyond, had it been supported) as an upgrade a decade after the fact just doesn't seem worth it to me. The RAM/SSD sure - a 2 TB consumer SSD wasn't even a possible thing to buy until a year…

Maybe it is subjective. For me it made perfect sense. I could not afford a new laptop but could afford rejuvenating an old one.

Re: LPCAMM2 is a modular, repairable, upgradeable memory standard for laptops

#146

Post by Rohansi »

mschuster91 wrote: post #133
Rohansi wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but some people need to justify their $1,800 USD purchase of laptop that comes with only 8 GB of RAM. Even though most laptops manufactured today would also come with NVMe (PCIe directly connected to the CPU, usually) flash storage, which is used by all operating systems as swap.

NVMe by no means is directly connected to the CPU directly, usually it's connected through at least one PCIe switch.

It's harder to confirm for laptops but you can refer to motherboard manuals to see if any of your PCIe-related slots go through a switch or not. For example, my current PC has a PCIe x16 slot, x1 slot, and two M.2 NVMe slots. It says everything is integrated into the CPU except the x1 slot which goes through the motherboard chipset. I don't see why any laptop would make NVMe go through a PCIe switch unless the CPU doesn't provide enough lanes to support everything supported by the motherboard. Even the at the lowest end, a dual core Intel Core i3-10110U (laptop processor from 2019) has 16 lanes from the CPU which could support at least one NVMe without going through a switch.

Re: LPCAMM2 is a modular, repairable, upgradeable memory standard for laptops

#147

Post by Tuna-Fish »

nrp wrote: post #60
Aurornis wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ugh, finally. FYI, the '2' at the end is because this isn't the first time this has been done. :) LPCAMM spec has been out for a while. LPCAMM2 is the spec for next-generation parts. Don't expect either to become mainstream. It's relatively more expensive and space-consuming to build an LPCAMM motherboard versus dropping the RAM chips directly on to the motherboard.

My recollection of this is that LPCAMM was a proposal from Dell that they put into the JEDEC standardization process, and LPCAMM2 is the resulting standard, named that way to avoid confusion with the non-standard LPCAMM that Dell trialed on a small number of commercial systems.

Almost. The Dell proposal is called CAMM, which was slightly modified during the JEDEC process and standardized as CAMM2, which is the combined with the memory type the same way DIMM was, For example LPDDR5X CAMM2 or DDR5 CAMM2. LPCAMM2 is not a name used in any JEDEC standard or even referred to anywhere on their site, but it seems to be used by both the memory manufacturers and the users because it's less of a mouthful, and they feel there needs to be more to distinguish between LPDDR5 CAMM2 and DDR5 CAMM2 because they are not electrically compatible.

Re: LPCAMM2 is a modular, repairable, upgradeable memory standard for laptops

#148

Post by jimbobthrowawy »

AlexDragusin wrote: post #50
zxcvgm wrote: post #19

I remember when Dell was the first to introduce [1] these Compression Attached Memory Modules in their laptops in an attempt to move away from soldered-on RAM. Glad this is now being more widely adopted and standardized. [1] https://www.pcworld.com/article/693366/dell-defends-its-cont...

> The first iteration, known as CAMM, was an in-house project at Dell, with the first DDR5-equipped CAMM modules installed in Dell Precision 7000 series laptops. And thankfully, after doing the initial R&D to make the tech a reality, Dell didn’t gatekeep. Their engineers believed that the project had such a good chance at becoming the next widespread memory standard that instead of keeping it proprietary, they went t…

Trying to make it a standard is one of the least surprising things about it. You want accessories/components in your product to be as commodity as possible to drive costs down.

Re: LPCAMM2 is a modular, repairable, upgradeable memory standard for laptops

#149

Post by [deleted] »

jwells89 wrote: post #113
teaearlgraycold wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but Apple’s trying to build an ecosystem where users get highly quality, offline, low latency AI computed on their device. Today there’s not much of that. And I don’t think they even really know what’s going to justify all of that silicon in the neural engine and the memory bandwidth. Imagine 5 years from now people have built whole stacks on that foundation. And then competing laptops need to ship that compute t…

Apple is also deliberately avoiding having “celeron” type products in their lineup because those ultimately mar the brand’s image due to being kinda crap, even if they’re technically adequate for the tasks they’re used for. They instead position midrange products from 1-2 gens ago as their entry level which isn’t quite as cheap but is usually also much more pleasant to use than the usual bargain basement stuff.

[deleted]

Re: LPCAMM2 is a modular, repairable, upgradeable memory standard for laptops

#150

Post by simcop2387 »

noodlesUK wrote: post #144
sharpshadow wrote: post #143

Would it be possible to have LPCAMM2 as external device tru thunderbolt?

No, RAM is not something that is exposed on the PCIe bus (which is what thunderbolt is based on). RAM has a different protocol (DDR5 in this case), and as it says in the article, is very sensitive to the distance between the CPU and the RAM. External RAM isn't really something that is viable in the modern era of computers as far as I know.

Surprisingly this is something starting to show up in the server market lately with a new protocol/tech called CXL. But yea that latency issue is still there over the distance but it'll let more remote memory type stuff start to happen. I doubt you'll do more than a few meters (i.e. within the same rack) ever but it'll likely end up getting used for so called "hyperscaler" type companies to more flexibly allocate resources, similar to how they're doing PCIe over ethernet with DPU devices right now. Unlikely that this will end up at the consumer level anytime even medium term because that kind of flexibility is still just so niche but we might see some CXL connectivity eventually for things like GPUs or other accelerators to have more memory or share better between host and accelerator.

EDIT: article about a tech demo of it on a laptop actually, hadn't seen this before: https://www.techradar.com/pro/even-a-laptop-can-run-ram-exte...

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