Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Ivy League and other elite private colleges are losing esteem

natesilver.net

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

141–150 of 186 posts

Re: The Ivy League and other elite private colleges are losing esteem

#141

Post by invalidname »

DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #140
invalidname wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the idea of founding a Jewish state in an Arab land, Palestine Why is it an Arab land? According to the Quran/Bible etc. it is very much the ancestral land of the Jews. But I agree this is a pointless discussion. Decisions were made, wars were fought. Complaining over what happened in 1947 is as bad as Jews complaining about what happened 2000 years ago. It's history. > that doesn't make what the Israelis have done…

> Why is it an Arab land? Because the population was nearly 100% Arab. > But also look at Israelis who want to enter the universities and can't. ... Barred from entry. Israelis are not barred from entry. I know of only one individual Israeli who has been barred from entering the Columbia main campus, and that's because he has more than 50 harassment claims against him, and because he tried to lead a counterprotest di…

> Because the population was nearly 100% Arab.

When?

Jews started coming back to Israel in the 19th century. That land was occupied by empires since the Jews were outcasts. Everyone who came there was a vagrant following the Ottoman empire. That doesn't make their land "theirs" anymore than it is ours.

> Israelis are not barred from entry. I know of only one individual Israeli who has been barred from entering the Columbia main campus, and that's because he has more than 50 harassment claims against him, and because he tried to lead a counterprotest directly into a protest. The administration told him to hold the counterprotest at a nearby location, so as not to create a direct physical confrontation.

E.g. Shai Davidai. He's a professor and was followed by quite a few people so they were all barred from entering. He specifically supports a two state solution, so what would he have to counter protest?

Then there's all the Israeli students who were physically attacked? Including most ironically Yosef Hadad who's a Palestinian Israeli and was physically assaulted at Colombia.

Re: The Ivy League and other elite private colleges are losing esteem

#142

Post by tptacek »

runarberg wrote: post #128
tptacek wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is 53% turnout a lot or a little in Israel? It's a lot in the US, obviously. What does it matter that the number includes Druze and Bedouin? Other than that both communities are harshly discriminated against in the surrounding countries without reaction or even notice from the commentariat? I understand arguments about colonization vis a vis Gaza and (especially) the West Bank, whose occupations represent the threat…

The report linked by my parent talks about 53% being a great turnout for Arab voters, as it was up from only 44.6% a year earlier. However this number has been going down all this century. If compared to Israel as a whole, it is very worrying to a point where I would call it a democratic flaw, as the general population has election participation around 70%. Talking about the colonization of Jaffa was in response to t…

Jaffa isn't Belfast. Its history is nothing like that of Belfast's. It's status is closer to that of San Antonio (except with the complexity of the exchange of displaced populations). I still don't understand what the point of trying to call out its "colonial" status is. It's not going anywhere.

Re: The Ivy League and other elite private colleges are losing esteem

#143

Post by racional »

racional wrote: post #116
ryandrake wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The protests aren't antisemitic. I believe that Israel's behavior will increase antisemitism around the world, but antisemitism has been conspicuously absent at the protests. American university campuses simply are not antisemitic places. The genius here is the extent to which they've managed to so closely link together: - The IDF - The Israeli government - The country of Israel - The residents of Israel - The Jewi…

Criticism of one (in a vacuum) has become criticism of all, Absolutely not true of the movement as a whole, by my lengthy and up-close observation. And by what my Jewish friends tell me on the subject. The distortion you are promoting here (especially in regard to items 5 and 6) is plainly unrealistic, and definitely not helpful to the current discussion.

The above was based on a hasty misreading of the parent's post.

My apologies, please ignore.

Re: The Ivy League and other elite private colleges are losing esteem

#144

Post by runarberg »

tptacek wrote: post #142
runarberg wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The report linked by my parent talks about 53% being a great turnout for Arab voters, as it was up from only 44.6% a year earlier. However this number has been going down all this century. If compared to Israel as a whole, it is very worrying to a point where I would call it a democratic flaw, as the general population has election participation around 70%. Talking about the colonization of Jaffa was in response to t…

Jaffa isn't Belfast. Its history is nothing like that of Belfast's. It's status is closer to that of San Antonio (except with the complexity of the exchange of displaced populations). I still don't understand what the point of trying to call out its "colonial" status is. It's not going anywhere.

Every case is unique, and yes Jaffa is nothing like Belfast. I simply brought it up because Belfast was also a settler colonial city claimed by the colonized peoples before the colonized relinquished their claim of it in a deal. However unlike Jaffa, when the nationalists relinquished their claim of the city, the colonizers reciprocated and gave them recognition of their state in return.

Re: The Ivy League and other elite private colleges are losing esteem

#145

Post by tptacek »

runarberg wrote: post #144
tptacek wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jaffa isn't Belfast. Its history is nothing like that of Belfast's. It's status is closer to that of San Antonio (except with the complexity of the exchange of displaced populations). I still don't understand what the point of trying to call out its "colonial" status is. It's not going anywhere.

Every case is unique, and yes Jaffa is nothing like Belfast. I simply brought it up because Belfast was also a settler colonial city claimed by the colonized peoples before the colonized relinquished their claim of it in a deal. However unlike Jaffa, when the nationalists relinquished their claim of the city, the colonizers reciprocated and gave them recognition of their state in return.

So, if I understand the argument, it's that calling out the "colonization" of places like Jaffa is moral leverage in an argument for recognizing Palestinian statehood in Gaza and the West Bank?

(I don't think you need more leverage for that argument; I think it's self-evident. But ok!)

Re: The Ivy League and other elite private colleges are losing esteem

#146

Post by runarberg »

invalidname wrote: post #132
runarberg wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Arab population in Jaffa is roughly 33%. A lot of that is due to the growth of the city. I’m a bit confused here. I was under the impression that Jaffa was annexed into Tel Aviv in 1949. Jaffa today is only a neighborhood, a district, or a part of a larger city. According Wikipedia[1] the Arab population of that portion of Tel Aviv called Jaffa is 33%, which is still only 16000 people. Before the Nakba the popu…

Jaffa and Tel Aviv are now a single municipality, it's considered a mixed city where we have both Arabs and Jews. This has advantages and disadvantages. Gentrification raises prices which make it hard for typically larger families to get homes (impacts Arab families more). But it also means that education and work opportunities are more equal. We get to live together and know each other. A lot of Arabs fled during th…

You probably know a lot more then me about this, and I apologize for speaking above my weight here. I will back down on this issue, thanks for informing me.

However, I want to keep talking about the Irish. To claim they got their independence via compromising is very simplistic. They were only able to compromise after 2½ years of violent resistance following the Easter Uprising, and even after the Anglo-Irish treaty in 1922 they still suffered almost a year of civil war as a consequence of that compromise. If not for the Easter Uprising, there would not have been an Anglo-Irish treaty, and the British would have gotten all they wanted. Ireland would probably have to wait until the decolonization period of the 1960s or the 1990s for any sort of political avenue for their statehood prospects.

I’m pretty sure there were people during the onset of the 1920s claiming that the IRA was “sabotaging” any peace treaty, especially since (unlike Hamas) they actually didn’t want to cede Belfast. And unlike Israel, the British negotiated despite the IRA not wanting to compromise. The IRA fought other nationalists in a civil war over this (and so did Hamas,,, kinda).

Re: The Ivy League and other elite private colleges are losing esteem

#147

Post by runarberg »

tptacek wrote: post #145
runarberg wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every case is unique, and yes Jaffa is nothing like Belfast. I simply brought it up because Belfast was also a settler colonial city claimed by the colonized peoples before the colonized relinquished their claim of it in a deal. However unlike Jaffa, when the nationalists relinquished their claim of the city, the colonizers reciprocated and gave them recognition of their state in return.

So, if I understand the argument, it's that calling out the "colonization" of places like Jaffa is moral leverage in an argument for recognizing Palestinian statehood in Gaza and the West Bank? (I don't think you need more leverage for that argument; I think it's self-evident. But ok!)

Yes, you understand correctly. And yes, you are right, it is irrelevant. I actually conceded in a different thread.

Re: The Ivy League and other elite private colleges are losing esteem

#148

Post by runarberg »

edanm wrote: post #137
tptacek wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is 53% turnout a lot or a little in Israel? It's a lot in the US, obviously. What does it matter that the number includes Druze and Bedouin? Other than that both communities are harshly discriminated against in the surrounding countries without reaction or even notice from the commentariat? I understand arguments about colonization vis a vis Gaza and (especially) the West Bank, whose occupations represent the threat…

Just to add a note here - historically, Palestinian citizens of Israel (commonly referred to as Israeli-Arabs) have had complicated feelings about taking part in Israeli elections. I don't think I can speak properly on this topic as I'm not a Palestinian myself, but if you're interested it's worth trying to look into this. Despite making up 20% of the Israeli population, 2021 was the first time an independent Arab pa…

I did find this quote interesting from the IDI poll[1]

> Asked by the IDI which issue should be at “the heart of the election campaign,” 54% said violence in Arab society, 16% said housing, 11% said the status of the Al-Aqsa Mosque in the Old City of Jerusalem, and only 5% said the Palestinian issue.

What I take from this is that Israeli-Arabs care a lot more about their own community as Israeli-Arabs than the prospects of their neighbors in Palestine having a free Palestinian state.

1: https://www.timesofisrael.com/surveys-predict-bump-in-arab-v...

Re: The Ivy League and other elite private colleges are losing esteem

#149

Post by tptacek »

runarberg wrote: post #147
tptacek wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, if I understand the argument, it's that calling out the "colonization" of places like Jaffa is moral leverage in an argument for recognizing Palestinian statehood in Gaza and the West Bank? (I don't think you need more leverage for that argument; I think it's self-evident. But ok!)

Yes, you understand correctly. And yes, you are right, it is irrelevant. I actually conceded in a different thread.

Yeah, that last comment wasn't a rebuttal, just a ratification of understanding. :)

Re: The Ivy League and other elite private colleges are losing esteem

#150

Post by edanm »

runarberg wrote: post #148
edanm wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to add a note here - historically, Palestinian citizens of Israel (commonly referred to as Israeli-Arabs) have had complicated feelings about taking part in Israeli elections. I don't think I can speak properly on this topic as I'm not a Palestinian myself, but if you're interested it's worth trying to look into this. Despite making up 20% of the Israeli population, 2021 was the first time an independent Arab pa…

I did find this quote interesting from the IDI poll[1] > Asked by the IDI which issue should be at “the heart of the election campaign,” 54% said violence in Arab society, 16% said housing, 11% said the status of the Al-Aqsa Mosque in the Old City of Jerusalem, and only 5% said the Palestinian issue. What I take from this is that Israeli-Arabs care a lot more about their own community as Israeli-Arabs than the prospe…

Interesting. Though this is from two years ago, I imagine it would seem different today.

In some sense the fact that so many don't vote is a kind of solidarity with other Palestinians, though I think a misguided one.

Post reply on HN