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End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

theguardian.com

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Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#141

Post by mrtksn »

tweakimp wrote: post #138
mrtksn wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not like they have another option, have they? It's an interesting challenge to transform an uninhabitable piece of earth into something where people might want to live. Also, AFAIK they are very aware that oil money isn't going to keep pouring forever and they indeed are trying to diversify. Their elites all study in UK, France, Switzerland and the USA and the questionable stuff they do is actually about the loc…

Sure, they could put money in education, research climate change and photovoltaic or other technologies and try to improve quality of life with sustainable stuff. But to the people in power, only symbols and power are important.

I think they do all that. They have plenty of universities, also their other oil rich neighbours are pouring money into British and American educational institutions to open campuses there. IIRC some Ivy league universities from the Western world have campuses in the region.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#142

Post by lupusreal »

Mashimo wrote: post #87
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Saudi Arabia has this weird affinity for these completely ridiculous sci-fi projects Same reason Egypt is building a decadent new capital: it lets the ruler pay off his supporters.

Also most "normal" people will be physical separated from the ruling people. Makes it harder to protest government buildings.

That benefit only manifests if the line city is built, which obviously it won't be.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#143

Post by EduardoBautista »

yreg wrote: post #133
lvl102 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For decades, they wanted to diversify away from oil and build tech industries. The problem is they don’t have skilled labor and would have to import “slaves” as they do with everything. They have some of the lowest skilled and laziest labor in the world. If/when dependence on oil ends, these countries will go back to being poor. Edit: contrast ME with Mexico who is running out of oil. Yet, they are able to build beca…

Dubai lives from tourism now. Of course, it was bootstrapped by oil.

It also makes money from construction projects. It’s one of the big reasons they offer residence visas to people who buy real estate there.

I live in Dubai but grew up in the United States. Despite what people may believe, there is freedom of religion here, women aren’t oppressed, and the government genuinely cares about having a good city to live in.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#144

Post by fancyfredbot »

zaphirplane wrote: post #119
delta_p_delta_x wrote: post #43

The only thing the Gulf states have going for them is oil money and a good hub location on the Europe–Southeast Asia airline routes. Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Riyadh, Bahrain, Qatar, they all remind me of that quote from King of the Hill—they are monuments to man's arrogance. Desert cities hitting 50+ °C air temperature at midday which means air conditioning everywhere; vapid luxury in the form of expensive garish cars, shop…

Clearly you dislike gulf countries. The points raised are a mixture of facts, fiction, jealousy and dislike. You want them to boil in desert heat with some environmental appeal, while many countries pump the air full of pollution from factories or massive ICE cars I haven’t heard of back alley executions over there I don’t feel hate towards someone spending their money on 2 cars or a holiday house or whatever luxury…

I'm guessing people's distastefor gulf states can be explained largely by their ranking in the global slavery index [1] (three gulf states in the top ten) the global freedom index [2] (Saudi Arabia in bottom ten) and the global corruption index (gulf states are not as good at corruption as slavery or repression but they still give it a good shot).

This seems more likely to me as an explanation than hating on people with different taste. Otherwise everyone would hate Japan for example.

[1] https://www.walkfree.org/global-slavery-index/#the-scale [2] https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/freedom-i... [3] https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2022

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#145

Post by [deleted] »

satvikpendem wrote: post #74
Simon_ORourke wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> local chiefs who oppose stupid and unrealistic white elephant vanity projects are executed. Let's not gloss over the absolutely appalling respect many of these societies have for human dignity. Public executions and flogging, discrimination and imprisonment based solely on gender, absolutely zero regard for freedom of conscience when it comes to matters of religion. There's only so much you can get away with by say…

Not to mention literal modern day slavery where they bring in South Asians on the promise of better pay, then take away their passports and pay them pennies.

[deleted]

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#146

Post by keiferski »

tomp wrote: post #135
keiferski wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UAE is well on its way to being the Switzerland of the Middle East and Indian Ocean. Your rhetoric sounds like it’s from 2003.

Switzerland isn't the most progressive of countries (it only gave women the right to vote in 1971) but AFAIK you don't go to jail if you fuck a man in the ass, in contrast to UAE. Not something that directly concerns me, but I'm personally more worried about restrictions on freedom of speech, but regardless not somewhere I'd be willing to live (I currently do live in Switzerland).

I used Switzerland as an example because of its financial industry. I wasn’t making any commentary on the culture. Presumably if the UAE is the Switzerland of the Middle East and Indian Ocean, it’s more adapted for that cultural environment and not for what Westerners are looking for.

These laws are also pretty much never enforced in UAE, as far as I understand.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#147

Post by Mashimo »

lupusreal wrote: post #142
Mashimo wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also most "normal" people will be physical separated from the ruling people. Makes it harder to protest government buildings.

That benefit only manifests if the line city is built, which obviously it won't be.

No I mean in the case of Egypt.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#149

Post by keiferski »

StefanBatory wrote: post #139
keiferski wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right but if the idea is to maximize the open space / city size while maintaining a fast transit system, then the line makes sense to me. I guess I don’t really understand the criticism, most of which seems to be “you should just build something that isn’t the thing you want to build.” There is plenty of aesthetic merit to the linear city idea on its own. To use an example of a place that already exists: the city Łód…

the city Łódź in Poland is situated along a single linear 4-5km street Piotrkowska?

Yep. The city itself expands in all directions but Piotrowska is the main hub.

Re: End of the Line? Saudi Arabia to scale back plans for desert megacity

#150

Post by lvl102 »

keiferski wrote: post #137
lvl102 wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Think about the fact that education is pretty much free there. They even pay for Western institutions to set up satellite campuses. You’d think they should have the most educated and skilled labor in the world. At some point, you have to realize it’s cultural: they don’t want to work. Funny you mention Switzerland because they have some of the highest skilled labor in the world.

You’re generalizing nearly 20 million people in Saudi Arabia alone. How this is even an acceptable thing to say on HN is beyond me. The Gulf countries have more than enough expertise to manage and run their wealth for the foreseeable future. To say they’ll be poor again without oil is simply ignorant of the facts and probably related to the point I made above.

You’re right. It’s a gross generalization. But it is based on my personal and professional experience.
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