141–150 of 273 posts
No one is saying that just because you learn to program you will be seeking to do it professionally. I think mayor of New York knows better than to quit his post and start seeking some janitorial programming position.
In another situation the person again figured out when an app would deliver really awesome results over the bog standard 60's way of doing things, and during the meeting to see if we could help out and all the subsequent revision communication, they just knew a lot about how apps get written. They'd suggest things that made it 10 times easier to write, understood that throwing in an option for everything instead of having a set functionality makes testing and code branches and maintenance a real pain in the ass, approved slight changes that made things a lot easier to write ahead of time instead of demanding meeting the requirements exactly as they were written, etc..
It's sort of like when you hear about someone trained as a doctor and who can also code doing all this awesome stuff. Except in a large organization we already have a ridiculous amount of skilled people available, so it's closer to you just need to know about people's capabilities and how they work to get really close to a similar situation where you can take advantage of both fields. So anyway, even if it isn't someone's job to code, it can be very valuable for them to know how to, and it can make them a lot easier to work with for those of us who do code professionally.
I really, really disagree with Jeff Atwood here. Jeff has interpreted "learn to code" with "become a programmer". They're not the same thing. I don't think that is what this meme is about at all. Programming is logical thinking in practise. Programming is breaking a problem set down, thinking step by step through it, thinking of edge cases, and making it work. There is nothing wrong with Jeff's BASIC example, if that…
If the benefit of everyone learning programming is logical/critical thinking, breaking a problem down and thinking of edge cases, etc, then why not focus on teaching everyone how to do that instead?
A good way of doing that may very well be teaching some form of programming, but unless you explicitly state the goals up front a lot of people are very likely to miss the point completely and either teach just programming, or learn just how to code.
I really, really disagree with Jeff Atwood here. Jeff has interpreted "learn to code" with "become a programmer". They're not the same thing. I don't think that is what this meme is about at all. Programming is logical thinking in practise. Programming is breaking a problem set down, thinking step by step through it, thinking of edge cases, and making it work. There is nothing wrong with Jeff's BASIC example, if that…
Well said. I wholly agree with "learn to code" != "become a programmer". Learning programming has helped me in many other walks of life. It has taught me that every problem can be tackled with a systematic approach, given enough time. I like to think that helps me to notice things that would have gone unnoticed without. More than anything else, it is this approach, enforced by programming, for which I hold gratitude.…
Programmer Hierarchy: Level 0: (Many bosses I have had) Level 1: "Hello World" Level 2: Does something Level 3: Updates a data base Level 4: Solves a little problem Level 5: Produces value Level 6: Sidetracks other programmers to maintain Level 7: Provides a platform for other value producers Level 8: Solves big problems Level 9: Still produces value years later Everyone should get past Level 0. If you're going to ge…
There are plenty of level 3 cheesy little Access and VB apps that any "serious" programmer would laugh that that are level 5 or 9 on your scale.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
As opposed to vocational coding/programming/hacking. Seems like you're being facetious for the point of it?
I'm not trying to be facetious, just misunderstanding whatever point original commenter is making. "Most people don't what programming even looks like"? I don't think that is true because most people can search for code samples if needed.
I, for one, wish more people understood what programming "looks like", so that I could actually talk to people about what I do without them being completely confused. People can visualize what nearly every other profession does day-to-day, but what programmers do is a complete mystery to most people. I tell people that I'm a writer for a language with a very structured grammar, but that's only part of the story.
Assumptions about how much value is involved for a programming neophyte. Assumptions about what one would do with a little knowledge. Assumptions about how valuable the study of programming is for an individual. Assumptions about what one can be empowered to do, once gaining a little knowledge. I'm sure there are more. Our assumptions may not be equal, but we sure have no problem making them.
No matter if you support Jeff or feel he's way off base, there's a lot of judgment involved this topic, and we should really just stop for a second. As professional developers/programmers/architects/etc., it's easy for us to have opinions on this subject and find any scenario to support any argument one way or the other. The exercise of positing an argument, one way or the other, is actually unnecessary.
For us to judge if something has value to someone else, a little or a lot, makes assumptions about how someone will discover, learn, expand, grow. In spite of our experience in the field, making such broad assumptions might be accurate in some cases, but the variability of outcomes shouldn't be underestimated. Should we encourage everyone to learn? Maybe, but I don't assume it's the best use of time for everyone. Should we encourage everyone to go deep, perhaps enter the profession? I'm not sure of that, either. But I do know that answering those questions with broad absolutes as outcomes requires quite a bit of hubris on my part.