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Welcome To Life

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Re: Welcome To Life

#141

Post by D_Alex »

sodiumphosphate wrote: post #36

While it does make for some entertaining fiction, and may provide some benefits to the living, I do not believe that 'uploading' is a desirable experience. In fact, I don't believe that one can experience it at all. Imagine the procedure (for a conscious person): your brain is connected to a computer interface and a copy of your mind is taken. Great. Now there is a digital copy of your mind. So what? You still get to…

Greg Egan has quite a few amazing stories dealing with the transition process. "Transition Dreams" is the one I remember, it is a bit dark.

I cant find a free link, but here is a paid e-book, $0.59: http://www.fictionwise.com/ebooks/b876/Transition-Dreams/Gre...

Re: Welcome To Life

#142

Post by nikatwork »

sodiumphosphate wrote: post #36

While it does make for some entertaining fiction, and may provide some benefits to the living, I do not believe that 'uploading' is a desirable experience. In fact, I don't believe that one can experience it at all. Imagine the procedure (for a conscious person): your brain is connected to a computer interface and a copy of your mind is taken. Great. Now there is a digital copy of your mind. So what? You still get to…

if you are aware of anything dealing with this concept of human metamorphosis, fiction or otherwise, I would appreciate a link.

This free Cory Doctorow piece could float your boat: "0wnz0red - Programmers who hack their own bodies don't need exercise and never get sick" http://www.salon.com/2002/08/28/0wnz0red/singleton/

Re: Welcome To Life

#143

Post by dennisgorelik »

sukuriant wrote: post #137
dennisgorelik wrote: post #133

Human mind keeps only few key details about "copyrighted works" we observed. These are not enough details stored in order to violate copyright.

That's why some people can recite whole poems and other people can play songs from memory while singing them too. That's why you know just when to pause when you're singing to a song on the radio and the singer stops, and you know when the pitch changes, and what that particular beat is in the background that you follow. There's more than enough details to be considered a violation of copyright.

Only few people remember thole poems and minority of people remember whole songs. In any case, the number of fully copied items would almost always stay below one hundred (not hundred thousands). And even those "copies" would not really be considered a copy by our contemporary judge (circa 2012). These are "backups" at best.

Re: Welcome To Life

#144

Post by rbanffy »

pbw wrote: post #129
rbanffy wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering the metamorphosis idea, by the time your whole brain was replaced, piece by piece, by devices simulating its behavior, you became an upload - it's just that all of your data is running inside your head (or that this illusion is maintained by very low-latency links to your root-self running elsewhere). Still, the moment you move its dataset to a new device and deactivate the original, aren't you killing th…

From a body-centric point of view the original dies either way, whether neuron-by-neuron or all at once. From a consciousness point of view it's less clear. Firstly because we don't understand consciousness. But if we believe consciousness is some subjective experience that results from the functioning brain or similar physical device, what can we say? Think of a vinyl record and a digital music player. The vinyl rec…

That's one wonderful analogy! Thank you!

Re: Welcome To Life

#145

Post by unimpressive »

DeepDuh wrote: post #8
sandieman wrote: post #4

What happens if you don't agree to TOS?

Welcome to "Death"/null.

This. It's all but explicitly stated on the screen. Notice the notice informing you that your "simulated personality" will be terminated upon refusal to accept the TOS.

Not that it matters, clones don't have souls, like twins. [0]

[0]: http://www.thinkwithportals.com/comic/#22

Re: Welcome To Life

#146

Post by notJim »

jterce wrote: post #109
nova wrote: post #100

There is a lot of the classical discussion on personal identity here. The argument about a copy being "identical to me but it's not me" is a very natural and intuitive reaction, but it's probably wrong. A very illuminating explanation is http://lesswrong.com/lw/pm/identity_isnt_in_specific_atoms and related posts. I'll try a personal approach: imagine a country with no computers, no photocopiers, no presses, and a ve…

Yes, of course both are. But still, you're only ever going to be conscious from the perspective contained within the original you. The copy may be mathematically identical, but it does not make sense that there would be any kind of a magical transition of consciousness from one to the other. The other "you" would have its own consciousness entirely separate from yours. I.e., if you copy yourself and kill the original…

I think I might understand what you're saying.

Let's say we can copy me. As in, we make another me (let's call him me* ) that is physically identical to me in every possible way.

I believe your argument is that I will continue to be me, and me* will essentially be a different person. If I die, that's it. me* lives on, but I am not me* , I am me.

The interesting question, which your parent (in the thread) posits an answer to, is what is the actual difference between me and me* ?

If you believe that humans exist entirely within the physical world (as in, there's no mystical/religious/spiritual element to our existence--we're just matter and energy), then me and me* are no different. Suppose we go back to your idea, that we kill me after creating me* . Since I am purely a physical being, I have no way of distinguishing between me and me* . In particular, if you never told me that I am me* , I would have absolutely no way of distinguishing the difference between me and me* .

Re: Welcome To Life

#147

Post by notJim »

koide wrote: post #135
nova wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Words fail me. Imagine I have a magical device with which I can "stop time", or more precisely, stop movement of all particles except mine. In the beginning I am at our right. I stop time, move leisurely to your left and resume time. What you see is me teleporting from your right to your left. You don't feel "trapped in a body who can't move", because your neurons are also magically frozen. Your consciousness feel co…

I will read what you suggest, but perhaps you can illustrate how would the sensation of identity will transfer from the physical body to the digital body? Because your example does not explain it.

(I am not the OP).

Let's suppose we believe that everything about me can be contained in the physical processes that happen in my body.

Now suppose that we have the ability to digitally simulate those processes perfectly. Since my existence is purely physical, the "sensation of identity" you describe is perfectly captured by this digital simulation, by definition.

Re: Welcome To Life

#148

Post by joe_the_user »

oskarth wrote: post #52
sodiumphosphate wrote: post #36

While it does make for some entertaining fiction, and may provide some benefits to the living, I do not believe that 'uploading' is a desirable experience. In fact, I don't believe that one can experience it at all. Imagine the procedure (for a conscious person): your brain is connected to a computer interface and a copy of your mind is taken. Great. Now there is a digital copy of your mind. So what? You still get to…

I agree that human metamorphosis is extremely interesting, but this line I really don't get: > Consciousness is mortally bound to the physical body, and will die along with it regardless of how many mental copies are made. I don't understand how you can put out a statement like that, like it's taken for granted or something. It's far from granted, and I've never heard of something remotely approaching a proof for thi…

What is fascinating is how strongly and without proof many people believe the argument that "Consciousness is mortally bound to the physical body". If anything, this fixation seems like both an interesting study of the blind-spots of human mental process and as evidence that the situation is, in fact, rather unlikely.

This particular, uh, delusion, seems similar to the recurrent theme that an "intelligent" enough computer would/could "develop self-conscious" (whatever that is) and start "thinking for itself". Here, we have strong ideas about the properties of "self-consciousness", without, as you say, having a ghost of an idea of what it is.

Re: Welcome To Life

#149

Post by koide »

notJim wrote: post #147
koide wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will read what you suggest, but perhaps you can illustrate how would the sensation of identity will transfer from the physical body to the digital body? Because your example does not explain it.

(I am not the OP). Let's suppose we believe that everything about me can be contained in the physical processes that happen in my body. Now suppose that we have the ability to digitally simulate those processes perfectly. Since my existence is purely physical, the "sensation of identity" you describe is perfectly captured by this digital simulation, by definition .

But then it would be a whole new sensation of identity of the copy, not the existing sensation of identity.

Re: Welcome To Life

#150

Post by koide »

sofal wrote: post #139
koide wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will read what you suggest, but perhaps you can illustrate how would the sensation of identity will transfer from the physical body to the digital body? Because your example does not explain it.

What is this "sensation of identity" and what makes you think that it is something that can't be duplicated, and instead has to be transferred?

It could be duplicated, but then it would be a copy and not the one you currently have. I expect you can easily imagine this by picturing your copy uploaded to the simulator while you live and then running the simulation.

Whatever the copy does after that you won't experience and it won't be part of your memories. If you say that's not the case and that you will experience and be aware of what the copy is doing, then you are proposing some sort of metaphysical connection between the two beings, which I find hard to swallow.

I like this definition of identity: "A person's identity is defined as the totality of one's self-construal, in which how one construes oneself in the present expresses the continuity between how one construes oneself as one was in the past and how one construes oneself as one aspires to be in the future"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_identity_%28philosophy... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_%28social_science%29 http://www.psych-it.com.au/Psychlopedia/article.asp?id=76

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