New cars are built out of plastic and are thus limited to a 10yr life span, fullstop. Every one of them. Then you add electric to the mix, and in 5-10yrs ur gonna need to buy a new one, no matter the brand, because your battery will fail. The lucky ones get a second under warrenty. I dont know, i stopped buying new cars once computers were added. I own a 95` landcruiser with 300k on the clock and i beleive it has ano…
New car buying guide: the algorithm (2021)
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Re: New car buying guide: the algorithm (2021)
#142One slightly related topic: How is depreciation for cars calculated correctly when the dealers are adding this random markup and/or cross subsidizing finance deals? I originally started thinking about this due to stories about EV depreciation that make no mention of $8k plus federal/state subsidies that the buyer received. Is it as simple as some average second hand price vs MRSP?
So in this case, the cost is whatever you pay after credits / markups / etc. MSRP (Manufacturer Suggested Retail Price) doesn’t really matter - the cost to you is what you paid for it.
And then the value after using the car for sometime is whatever you could sell it for at that time.
So I get EV for $50k after credits.
I drive for 1 year and sell for $40k, then I would have $10k in depreciation.
If your goal is to understand how much of money you are actually spending that’s it.
Sometimes you want to play games for tax / accounting purposes. Then depreciation becomes this funny made up number that is a mix of depreciation rules and what works well for you. Eg most of the cars value is lost in years 1-3 but I might ‘take’ an even amount of depreciation over 5 years.
Re: New car buying guide: the algorithm (2021)
#14310 years ago I walked in a dealership to buy a used car and employed a negotiation tactic that I had recently learned online. The problem was that the technical price negotiation worked so incredibly well that I basically got (politely) thrown out of the dealership. The tactic was simple: disarming empathy. It was a method presented by a hostage negotiator via this NPR podcast: https://www.npr.org/transcripts/1678023…
Maybe the owner figured out your game and explained it to the salesman, who then proceeded to use it on you.
Re: New car buying guide: the algorithm (2021)
#144Bought my first new vehicle in fifteen years. Here are the steps that I took. 1. Test drove four different brands 2. Went to six banks and found out the lowest interest rate I could get. Everyone told me that it would be at a credit union but instead it was a brand new bank that apparently was hungry to get new business 3. Emailed every dealer for the brand I chose within 225 miles. 4. You want to do one thing at a t…
You must be buying a seriously expensive luxury car if they can knock a couple grand off before you set foot on the lot. I don't think a Corolla (sort of my standard for reliable A to B transportation) even has that much margin at MSRP. Different strokes and all that, but I doubt this process would work for me and most buyers.
I allowed them to offer me financing, but told them "anything higher than 0%, I won't pay" [so I paid cash].
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This car is an absolute sleeper — much quicker (not faster) than my turbocharged Subaru. Just brilliant to drive. I'm pretty sure I got a great deal on this one, and the hybrid system still has a few years of warranty left (unless I hit 100k, first — likely).
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Other tips: go at the end of the month; ask for "out the door" pricing; BE OPENLY WILLING TO WALK AWAY ("I don't give AF about anything" attitude); don't be afraid to negotiate^† — they certainly are.
I love my new (to me) Camry Hybrid. Instantaneous electric torque is incredible, as is regenerative braking.
†: I literally rejected their first number by saying [after a long pause]: "Look: I understand that this is a business and that businesses need to make money; however, I was really hoping the out the door price started with a one... if it can, then I will pay for it right now." And then it did [$19,900]
Re: New car buying guide: the algorithm (2021)
#145This guide looks exhausting. I called a dealership. Asked if they had X car at MSRP. They said yes. I waited for it to arrive. I went there (10 minute drive), paid via check and drove out with it. The worst part of the experience was the lack of color options.
Dealers love to add expensive addons like GPS trackers, remote starters, or paint protection. It is hard to find a new car that doesn't have that garbage. Especially in a short time frame.
Re: New car buying guide: the algorithm (2021)
#146Earlier quoted context omitted.
Some of the tech in newer cars is just downright impressive. * Toyota's hybrids can achieve close to 40 miles per gallon on an SUV while achieving 200+ horse power and completely eliminates all timing belts and chains. No more digging into the engine bay to replace those. Just fluid replacements and inspections of the electrical connectors. * Anti lock brakes are way better today then systems from the late 90's. A 19…
> Is it really that surprising that there's people that don't want to put the kind of effort needed to dig into and repair an older car? This is weird to read having grown up in a family that has never once bought a car new. My parents don't know a damn thing about cars and it's never been a noticeable issue. Buy the car with 40-60k and drive it to 200k, repeat. They're usually not American cars but there were some F…
I don't doubt at all that there's good used cars out there. But for a lot of folks, it's worth the extra money for the peace of mind comes with a new off showroom floor new car with a completely known history with a manufacturer backed warranty that includes roadside assistance.
Re: New car buying guide: the algorithm (2021)
#147Earlier quoted context omitted.
The UK is heading this way too, and I hate it. If you show up with cash to buy a car, you're looked at like you're crazy. They push, and push to get you to take out a loan. It no longer puts you in a better negotiating position to be a cash buyer, as they're making more money selling you finance than selling the car. For all of Tesla's failings, car dealerships will die out. Millennials and Gen Z _hate_ being sold to…
Anecdotally I've heard of people getting discounts from the dealer by buying on finance, then asserting the right to cancel within 14 days* and paying cash instead. AIUI the dealer doesn't have to accept the cash, and could take the car back, but then they lose the sale, so they generally just suck it up. (* https://www.carmoola.co.uk/blog/cooling-off-period-car-finan... )
Re: New car buying guide: the algorithm (2021)
#148Keep in mind that going through this strategy will take you hours and hours, and with Software Engineering salaries it's quite probable that you should instead rather be working on stuff that you're actually good at with this time. Or then you outsource this whole process to someone else and pay them a slight premium, which is what I would do. My time isn't worth an email battle and spreadsheet acrobatics to save $3k…
Re: New car buying guide: the algorithm (2021)
#149(emphasis mine)
This part is buried in the whole document, but is probably the most important.
If you have some temporal wiggle room, go on the last day of the month. Not the second to last day, the very last day. Possibly after lunch if you can. You are going to get a much better deal.
Also, never buy a car at night.
Re: New car buying guide: the algorithm (2021)
#150A thing that will control your outcome a lot is the dynamic of the car market itself at that moment, and what's going on in the dealership. In my case, we bought our car in 2021 amid the chip shortages/supply chain issues. I called a good number of dealers and got the following response:
One dealer had the car coming in a few weeks and can sell it to me for the MSRP. One dealer said "we charge 1k OVER the MSRP for every car." The rest said "we don't have this car and won't have it anytime soon."
In that environment, knowing the dealer costs and all that other bullshit doesn't matter. You have one guy who knows he's got a car that nobody else has, and if he doesn't sell it to you there's gonna be someone else who wants it that same week. You have zero leverage to drive the price down. We bought it for the MSRP and considered ourselves lucky.
In another environment, getting consistent apples to apples quotes is your key to driving down cost. Basically you are putting dealers in competition. If Bob has more cars than he can sell, his best outcome is to sell to you for MSRP, but his second best outcome is to sell to you at all vs having you buy from someone else. What usually happens in this approach is you understand the range of quotes, pick your lowest quote and then ask the dealer you would rather deal with if they can beat it. "you are my local guy and I liked talking to you, would rather buy from you but you are a lot pricier than someone I can get from two towns away. Can you give me your best quote please?" can do wonders.
The reason you get a range of quotes is that dealers face different environments. Bob may have a lot of car X and not a lot of people asking about it, and John may have sold most of his X and has a lot of interest. This can be for totally arbitrary reasons from what their area is like, to total luck of the draw and in a few weeks Bob and John may have their situations reversed, but at the moment Bob's probably gonna be more open to giving you a deal.
A thing that also works is to make sure they know you're a thoughtful money conscious person who is doing his due diligence will make them give you a better quote. I say straight up "full disclosure, I am speaking to a few other dealerships to get a couple of quotes." That tells you that if they give you a high quote you will simply ignore it. If you seem naive and aren't going to be equipped to shop around, they might give you a higher quote to see what happens.
The article makes a good point that you should negotiate (as always) one thin at a time. So lock in the new car quote separately from financing and trade-ins. Better get one number down and then work on getting the next number up.
Finally and this is key - realize your situation and the leverage you do or don't have. If you don't need a new car right away, and dealers have more cars than they know what to do with, you can really work on this to squeeze out another grand out of the deal. If you are in a situation like I described above where I needed the car and literally nobody had one, don't feel bad paying the MSRP because that was the best price possible under that dynamic
I can also say in general that people undervalue and under-study how to negotiate. Negotiation is often a collaborative thing where both sides win (the dealer wins because I did the deal w them vs their competitor, I win because I paid less) and people often fail to negotiate because they assume negotiation is a confrontation and it scares them. If you are a person that lives in the world where you're not just ordering off a menu, taking a negotiations class or reading a book is a great use of time.