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Air Canada Has to Honor a Refund Policy Its Chatbot Made Up

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Re: Air Canada Has to Honor a Refund Policy Its Chatbot Made Up

#141

Post by chucksmash »

emaro wrote: post #83
VHRanger wrote: post #17

Why are we posting this when it's just rephrasing an Ars Technica article? It's even mentionned at the bottom: "This story originally appeared on Ars Technica." Give the clicks to the original article: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2024/02/air-canada-must-...

I don't like Ars Technica because they break reader mode and load articles chunk by chunk – I consider it hostile towards the user and am glad since Wired work much better.

What browser? Just tried it out on Firefox for Android (version 122.1.0, with uBlock Origin enabled but JS still allowed on ars) and for the link above, I see the whole article after immediately switching to reader mode.

Re: Air Canada Has to Honor a Refund Policy Its Chatbot Made Up

#142

Post by BizarreByte »

RajT88 wrote: post #62
rainbowzootsuit wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US at least once that notification that "the call may be recorded for quality assurance " happens, both parties have been notified and you're good to record regardless of the state you are in. What do you use for recording your calls?

I used to use a couple of apps like Cube ACR, or Call Recorder Pro, but these no longer work, and I'm skeptical of the workarounds to get them working again. Given the new restrictions in Android 10, probably the way forward is a passthrough device which uses 3.5mm connectors to MITM the audio. I haven't found one which is a sure bet yet.

It's ridiculous both iOS and Android largely have no way to record calls/try to prevent it, especially when some of us live in jurisdictions where we are well within our legal rights do to that very thing.

Re: Air Canada Has to Honor a Refund Policy Its Chatbot Made Up

#143

Post by rootusrootus »

OnionBlender wrote: post #61
floatrock wrote: post #36

Here's the real punchline: > Experts told the Vancouver Sun that Air Canada may have succeeded in avoiding liability in Moffatt's case if its chatbot had warned customers that the information that the chatbot provided may not be accurate. Here's a glimpse into our Kafka-esque AI-powered future: every corporate lawyer is now making sure any customer service request will be gated by a chatbot containing a disclaimer li…

If that is such a perfect way to avoid getting sued, why don't they put that on every page of their website and train all of their customer service staff to say that when they talk to customers?

Because it is a bad look, I assume. If I'm interacting with a company that constantly disclaims everything they say as probable bullshit, I'll go find a competitor that at least pretends to try harder.

Re: Air Canada Has to Honor a Refund Policy Its Chatbot Made Up

#144

Post by dataflow »

hiatus wrote: post #97
dataflow wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This actually sounds like an interesting case to me because the details make a huge legal difference in my mind. (But IANAL, maybe I'm entirely off base here.) E.g., did they tell you the shipping date after you placed the order, or before? If it was afterward, then it can't have invalidated the contract... you agreed to it without knowing when it would ship. If they told you before, then was it before they knew your…

> If it was afterward, then it can't have invalidated the contract... you agreed to it without knowing when it would ship. > Sellers have to ship your order within the time they (or their ads) say. That goes whether they say “2-Day Shipping” or “In Stock & Ships Today.” If they don’t give a time, they must ship within 30 days of when you placed your order. from the FTC https://consumer.ftc.gov/articles/what-do-if-you…

I believe that's referring to "shipment" in the sense of "when this gets mailed", not the arrival time like we were discussing? I guess it might depend on where the delays were incurred, and what exactly was promised.

Re: Air Canada Has to Honor a Refund Policy Its Chatbot Made Up

#145

Post by Silhouette »

floatrock wrote: post #36

Here's the real punchline: > Experts told the Vancouver Sun that Air Canada may have succeeded in avoiding liability in Moffatt's case if its chatbot had warned customers that the information that the chatbot provided may not be accurate. Here's a glimpse into our Kafka-esque AI-powered future: every corporate lawyer is now making sure any customer service request will be gated by a chatbot containing a disclaimer li…

Presumably this is why there is a trend in consumer rights legislation towards being explicit that anything a buyer has been told by a seller or actively told the seller before the sale is material to the contract of sale regardless of the seller's small print that says "This contract of sale we wrote by ourselves and won't negotiate with you and only this contract means anything". Then they can't promise the world to get the sale and then wash their hands of any resulting commitments two seconds after they get your money. Which seems entirely fair and reasonable to me, whether the promise came from a real person or a chatbot.

Re: Air Canada Has to Honor a Refund Policy Its Chatbot Made Up

#146

Post by BugsJustFindMe »

ysavir wrote: post #134
BugsJustFindMe wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forget about digital experiences for a moment. Forget entirely about chatbots. > Air Canada argues it cannot be held liable for information provided by one of its agents, servants, or representatives That includes EMPLOYEES. So they tried to argue that their employees can lie to your face to get you to buy a ticket under false pretense and then refuse to honor the promised terms? That's absolutely fucked.

I can sort of see it. On the one hand, it's reasonable to hold them accountable when an employee gives you the wrong discount. But if an employee, on their last day at work, decides to offer the next person calling all of the seats on a single flight for just $10, I think we'd all agree that it would be unreasonable to expect the airline to honor that offer. It's the degree of misinformation that's relevant.

> But if an employee, on their last day at work, decides to offer the next person calling all of the seats on a single flight for just $10, I think we'd all agree that it would be unreasonable to expect the airline to honor that offer.

The airline is free to go after the lying employee for compensation if they find out too late. It is never acceptable for the airline to cheat their customers.

Re: Air Canada Has to Honor a Refund Policy Its Chatbot Made Up

#147

Post by passwordoops »

dheera wrote: post #123
passwordoops wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think front-line support staff account for $100k in compensation?

Total overhead. Compensation + benefits + payroll taxes + all the per-employee real estate and equipment to support them on the job

Exactly. They are paid under $20/hr pre-tax ($40K) benefits (LOL for that job) won't exceed, what $5K of I'm betting mega generous.

Phone jockeys don't need real estate but in the event they do go to an office an individual employee would account for what, $50 a month of that expense? And equipment is trivial maybe a couple of hundred at most (laptop and headset).

We're not talking anything near $100K

Re: Air Canada Has to Honor a Refund Policy Its Chatbot Made Up

#148

Post by AlbertCory »

floatrock wrote: post #36

Here's the real punchline: > Experts told the Vancouver Sun that Air Canada may have succeeded in avoiding liability in Moffatt's case if its chatbot had warned customers that the information that the chatbot provided may not be accurate. Here's a glimpse into our Kafka-esque AI-powered future: every corporate lawyer is now making sure any customer service request will be gated by a chatbot containing a disclaimer li…

IANAL, but AFAIK you can't disclaim liability that you actually have. I'd love to hear an actual lawyer who knows (not a know-it-all amateur) declaim on this, but:

A Ferris Wheel operator cannot make you sign a disclaimer that they're not responsible if it collapses and kills you. Or rather, they can, but it will not hold up in court.

Similarly, you can say in your manual, "We're not responsible for anything we say here" but you still are.

I don't know about chatbots, but I'd expect that judges will look for other precedents that are analogous.

Re: Air Canada Has to Honor a Refund Policy Its Chatbot Made Up

#149

Post by PontifexMinimus »

chucksmash wrote: post #141
emaro wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like Ars Technica because they break reader mode and load articles chunk by chunk – I consider it hostile towards the user and am glad since Wired work much better.

What browser? Just tried it out on Firefox for Android (version 122.1.0, with uBlock Origin enabled but JS still allowed on ars) and for the link above, I see the whole article after immediately switching to reader mode.

Reader mode also works for me. (Firefox 122.0 for Ubuntu)
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