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PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

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Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#141

Post by palata »

paulddraper wrote: post #132
palata wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wasn't saying I disagree :-). > Apple failed to lower the on-ramp for native development to the people that wanted it. And they don't have to, IMHO. It's not that hard to learn how to do native iOS dev, and Apple is making a ton of money from those who do. Apple not wanting to go out of their way to lower the bar to a point that they don't find profitable is their choice. > In the free market, competition is king.…

> It's not that hard to learn how to do native iOS dev Brb gotta go get a whole new computer

Well if you develop an Android PWA without having a single Android device to test it on, then maybe you should not develop an Android app at all. Same applies for iOS.

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#142

Post by dot5xdev »

mulmen wrote: post #123

I understand the benefits of PWAs for developers. Can someone explain to me the benefits for users ? From a UX perspective how is a PWA superior to a native app?

For users, one of the ways PWAs are superior to native apps is that the user gets to use an app at all. It's hard to maintain 2 or 3 different codebases of an app, which means it might not get built at all. As a user, I'd rather use a decent app that exists, than not get to use an app at all.

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#143

Post by chrisandchris »

mzronek wrote: post #127
chrisandchris wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand your point, but it somewhat says that making awesome native apps is not even an option anymore. I use Things (a todo app) daily. It was #1 of Design in the AppStore maybe already 5 years ago. I think it's a perfect example for a beautifully made native app. I really feel how the native behaviour workes so much smoother. I would love for creators to somehow strive more for beautifully made apps instead of…

Things is a great example for PWAs, because it does not exist on Android, Linux or Windows. It could be though, if it would be a PWA. It is not and it seems like the developer focused its resources on native software for Apple products.

It could, yes. But the user experience and the amazing level of usability will degrade, and I would move to another product.

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#144

Post by palata »

smoldesu wrote: post #133
palata wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I did not express myself well. My point was that Apple not embracing PWAs is their choice, I don't see the problem there. I see a problem with the idea that "we did not convince Apple with our PWAs, that's probably because they are evil, so now we'll try to force them with the law".

Why do you see that as a problem? Apple is welcome to leave if they disagree with Europe's market terms. They didn't leave Russia when they made their demands though, and Lord knows they're deep enough in bed with China. Whipping up a fuss over sideloading and PWA guidelines is a red herring; Apple is just butthurt that regulators found their infinite service revenue loophole. Apple has every right to self-determinat…

> Why do you see that as a problem? Apple is welcome to leave if they disagree with Europe's market terms.

The problem I see is that IMHO, the law should not force Apple to accept a new technology just because web devs don't want to learn Apple's technology (that provide at least the same features as PWAs).

> Whipping up a fuss over sideloading and PWA guidelines is a red herring; Apple is just butthurt that regulators found their infinite service revenue loophole.

That's the thing: you conflate the App Store with the PWAs, and that's where I disagree. Enabling side-loading of native iOS apps is completely orthogonal to enabling PWAs. For some reasons pro-PWAs hijacked the side-loading lobbying effort and are trying to leverage it for their own agenda.

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#145

Post by layer8 »

usrusr wrote: post #98
layer8 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a customized variant of the browser installed through the app store On iOS, apps can only run a single app instance. Which means that, if you want to run multiple PWAs in parallel, you’d need a separate browser app per PWA.

A separate app per PWA that is little more than a tiny shim for whatever API Apple refuses to provide in the browser (many of them for very good reasons) and a script for spinning up another instance of the system browser with the API shims available. That's the Tauri model: you wouldn't install tens of browsers, but tens of configurations for the browser that is already there.

It means that the PWAs wouldn’t appear as separate apps, but as tabs within the same browser app.

Also, unlike native PWAs, you couldn’t have per-PWA notification badges on the app icons (because there’s only one). A browser app could maybe emulate this by providing different widgets per PWA, but still it would be a less straightforward experience.

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#146

Post by carlosjobim »

BandButcher wrote: post #6

Understandable... PWAs are ultimately an alternative path from traditional mobile apps which will take away money from apple/google. But as a web dev community we need to stand firm and build PWAs regardless. If we treat pwas on iOS like we did Internet explorer (i.e. giving it special attention and hack solutions as opposed to just not developing for it) we will lose the fight. I suggest you call out the issues with…

Depends on what outcome you want. If you're developing in a commercial outlet to make money you should do it iOS and MacOS first, because those users are more willing to pay for software and services.

> "for the best experience, use "

You just lost a customer.

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#147

Post by pjmlp »

BandButcher wrote: post #6

Understandable... PWAs are ultimately an alternative path from traditional mobile apps which will take away money from apple/google. But as a web dev community we need to stand firm and build PWAs regardless. If we treat pwas on iOS like we did Internet explorer (i.e. giving it special attention and hack solutions as opposed to just not developing for it) we will lose the fight. I suggest you call out the issues with…

Google alongside Microsoft, are the two main companies behind PWAs.

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#148

Post by smoldesu »

palata wrote: post #144
smoldesu wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you see that as a problem? Apple is welcome to leave if they disagree with Europe's market terms. They didn't leave Russia when they made their demands though, and Lord knows they're deep enough in bed with China. Whipping up a fuss over sideloading and PWA guidelines is a red herring; Apple is just butthurt that regulators found their infinite service revenue loophole. Apple has every right to self-determinat…

> Why do you see that as a problem? Apple is welcome to leave if they disagree with Europe's market terms. The problem I see is that IMHO, the law should not force Apple to accept a new technology just because web devs don't want to learn Apple's technology (that provide at least the same features as PWAs). > Whipping up a fuss over sideloading and PWA guidelines is a red herring; Apple is just butthurt that regulato…

Well, you're welcome to take issue with that I suppose. The way I see it, Apple has invited this for years; the only way in their ecosystem is through the App Store or the browser. If they make unreasonable demands out of their App Store, the exploitation of the browser will be next. It's been this way since Cydia, really.

Much as we'd rather deny it, the App Store and Safari are inextricably linked on iOS. There aren't alternatives allowed to either, and the purpose leads back to the same reason; control. It's really not hard to see how Apple's desire for stable service revenue is at-odds with the capabilities of their platform. The DMA and the DSA both give Apple the ultimatum; loosen up or ship out.

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#149

Post by threeseed »

etchalon wrote: post #86
threeseed wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If PWAs win That's like saying if Linux on the desktop wins in 2024. PWAs have been around for about a decade now. The excuses have run out.

I think Apple's failure to provide sufficient capabilities for PWAs is a valid excuse here. If PWAs are limited competitively on the platform with the highest ROI for developers … that's a problem.

There is always some API that is missing for PWAs to explode in popularity.

And then when you pin someone down it's never actually about APIs or capabilities.

It's about the ability to deploy apps to your phone whenever they like with full access to everything and nothing in their way.

Re: PWAs wont replace native iOS apps

#150

Post by DANmode »

osrec wrote: post #43
hmottestad wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looks like Apple is going to fix dark mode in iOS 18 by dropping support for PWAs altogether in my part of the world. https://www.macrumors.com/2024/02/08/ios-17-4-nerfs-web-apps...

That is really terrible. I don't like the closed nature of Apple's practices anyway, but the way in which they are stifling PWAs is truly abhorrent. I do feel they'll lose this battle eventually, even if it takes a few years. Cross platform apps without a required compile step or walled garden are almost certainly the end state I expect we'll reach within the next decade (probably sooner).

Keep speaking up, and making this issue clear for others.
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