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Apple's iMessage avoids EU's Digital Markets Act regulation

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Re: Apple's iMessage avoids EU's Digital Markets Act regulation

#141

Post by inkyoto »

hombre_fatal wrote: post #128
ghusto wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the U.S.A., people use iMessage by default, because they use text messaging. People don't use texts in Europe (we use WhatsApp and similar, but WhatsApp by a long margin). The reason people still use texts in the U.S.A. is up for debate, and it's something I've thought about for a long time.

US was a first-mover and had early telcom penetration, so SMS became culturally ubiquitous since it was the tech of the era. Late-movers could skip that and go straight to data-based telcoms and never had to deal with the critical culture mass of SMS while the US was stuck bolting on to and bridging SMS. It's like being able to skip over copper and go straight to fiber optics.

> US was a first-mover and had early telcom penetration, so SMS became culturally ubiquitous since it was the tech of the era.

Telco penetration – yes, the US had a upper hand. SMS (and messaging) – no, the US lagged behind for many years.

DAMPS (the 2nd generation mobile standard in the US) and early CDMA US networks did not support SMS/text messaging at all whereas European telco users had already been happily texting each other since the introduction of GSM (2G, early 90s). Americans used the phone answering machines and the voicemail instead, which has been widely depicted in Hollywood movies and was a source of amusement for non-US watchers.

GSM was later introduced in the US with very limited coverage on east and west coasts to support roaming for European users (roaming was non-existand in DAMPS and in CDMA networks, either) and operated on a frequency band (1900 MHz) that was incompatible with GSM 2G 900/1800 MHz bands and required a tri-band handset but it introduced SMS to the US mobile networks users for the first time.

There was also a pricing barrier that hampered adoption of SMS in the US – European and Asian users had to pay for SMS's they have sent, but not receive one (the cost was zero), whereas the US users had to pay to send AND to receive text messages. Gradually, 3G came to the US, brought SMS out of the box, gradually replaced DAMPS and CDMA networks in the US and the US users got SMS out of the box.

The US did not lead the cultural revolution that SMS had brought about in Europe/Asia.

Re: Apple's iMessage avoids EU's Digital Markets Act regulation

#142

Post by oluwie »

pbmonster wrote: post #65
freedomben wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> apps for $0, that cost money on the main app store - although their code is open source Interesting, I'm generally very opposed to Apple's way, but this sounds like a real unexpected benefit (silver lining on the cloud maybe?). It enables what I've long asked for from devs, mainly that they make the source available to paying customers.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I think I mean something else. I'm talking about this phenomenon: A software project is using an open source licence. And app gets made for Android, and because of culture or GPL, the app is open source, too. But on Google Play, the app costs money, contains ads, or there is sub-features, that you only get if you pay a (one time/monthly) fee. But because it's trivial to sideload on And…

Installing it means installing a bundle or a package, which would come with all of the ads and intricacies you want to get away from.

There are almost no applications (at least that I've found) where you can download the source code of the app, build it and then install it locally to your device (except for testing of course).

Re: Apple's iMessage avoids EU's Digital Markets Act regulation

#143

Post by acdha »

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #127
acdha wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple doesn't have ~300 Euro phones with OLED screens in its offer. Sure they do, the iPhone 12 is still widely available and it’s at least twice as fast as an A54. The prestige argument just hold up when you look at the data unless you scope it to say flagships. Google and Samsung charge just as much, and they have the same decreasingly small prestige that conveys. We’re 15 years into the touchscreen era so you’re…

>Sure they do, the iPhone 12 is still widely available and it’s at least twice as fast as an A54. The iPhone 12 doesn't cost 300 Euros, it's 500 Euros and only comes with a dinky 64GB RAM base vs 128GB on the cheaper Samsung.

Okay, let’s assume the prices I got on Amazon were scammers.

Here’s your “€300” A54 at €430:

https://www.worten.pt/produtos/smartphone-samsung-galaxy-a54...

Here’s the iPhone 12 at €550:

https://www.worten.pt/produtos/iphone-12-apple-6-1-64-gb-pre...

Now, maybe that extra hundred euros is really critical to you but on the other hand the iPhone will have a service life years longer (it’s over twice as fast), but also neither of these is in a price range where you’re moving into prestige territory. This is like arguing Toyota vs. VW in an alternate universe where Mercedes and Bentley don’t exist. Phones are an impressively flat market in that regard: Tim Cook and Sundar Pichai have the same phones as millions of people who earn many orders of magnitude less than either of them.

Re: Apple's iMessage avoids EU's Digital Markets Act regulation

#144

Post by acdha »

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #125
GeekyBear wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> decent Androids can be had for much less than an iPhone The Android ecosystem didn't have a $399 Android device in 2016 that is still getting first party security updates today. The 2016 iPhone SE has worked out to ~$50 per supported year.

Non techie people who buy phones in the real world don't care about stuf they can't see or feel or don't understand, like long SW updates, since it's not like Androids stop working once you stop getting updates. They do care about stuff the can actually see, like having big bright high resolution OLLED display, not that dim low-res display on the SE pulled straight out of a 2008 parts bin. Especially that phones are…

> Non techie people who buy phones in the real world don't care about stuf they can't see or feel or don't understand, like long SW updates, since it's not like Androids stop working once you stop getting updates.

No, they care when apps stop allowing them to watch DRMed content or they can’t get the latest version anymore because it requires a newer API version. They also care that Android apps cost more to develop because the developers have to avoid using newer APIs or spend more time on QA testing multiple versions. I’ve seen that enough times to know it’s a real problem, and it’s WAY more frustrating to the average person to learn that the phone they “just” bought is no longer supported. This is especially true for older users who are used to keeping a PC for a decade.

Re: Apple's iMessage avoids EU's Digital Markets Act regulation

#145

Post by FirmwareBurner »

acdha wrote: post #143
FirmwareBurner wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Sure they do, the iPhone 12 is still widely available and it’s at least twice as fast as an A54. The iPhone 12 doesn't cost 300 Euros, it's 500 Euros and only comes with a dinky 64GB RAM base vs 128GB on the cheaper Samsung.

Okay, let’s assume the prices I got on Amazon were scammers. Here’s your “€300” A54 at €430: https://www.worten.pt/produtos/smartphone-samsung-galaxy-a54... Here’s the iPhone 12 at €550: https://www.worten.pt/produtos/iphone-12-apple-6-1-64-gb-pre... Now, maybe that extra hundred euros is really critical to you but on the other hand the iPhone will have a service life years longer (it’s over twice as fast), but also…

UI can't control the fact that the Samsung is so expensive in Portugal. It's 100 Euros cheaper where I live.

>neither of these is in a price range where you’re moving into prestige territory.

It's not about prestige territory, but a stricker price difference of 200 Euros can sway purchase decisions in Europe when a wage is ~2000 Euros.

Re: Apple's iMessage avoids EU's Digital Markets Act regulation

#146

Post by FirmwareBurner »

acdha wrote: post #144
FirmwareBurner wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Non techie people who buy phones in the real world don't care about stuf they can't see or feel or don't understand, like long SW updates, since it's not like Androids stop working once you stop getting updates. They do care about stuff the can actually see, like having big bright high resolution OLLED display, not that dim low-res display on the SE pulled straight out of a 2008 parts bin. Especially that phones are…

> Non techie people who buy phones in the real world don't care about stuf they can't see or feel or don't understand, like long SW updates, since it's not like Androids stop working once you stop getting updates. No, they care when apps stop allowing them to watch DRMed content or they can’t get the latest version anymore because it requires a newer API version. They also care that Android apps cost more to develop…

>they care when apps stop allowing them to watch DRMed content or they can’t get the latest version anymore because it requires a newer API version.

And what's the cutoff point for that on Android? I have an Android 9 phone I keep around for tinkering and every ap I need still works just fine.

> to learn that the phone they “just” bought is no longer supported.

In which universe your Android you just bough becomes outdated? Unless you got a time machine and went and Just bough an Android from 2016.

Re: Apple's iMessage avoids EU's Digital Markets Act regulation

#147

Post by acdha »

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #146
acdha wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Non techie people who buy phones in the real world don't care about stuf they can't see or feel or don't understand, like long SW updates, since it's not like Androids stop working once you stop getting updates. No, they care when apps stop allowing them to watch DRMed content or they can’t get the latest version anymore because it requires a newer API version. They also care that Android apps cost more to develop…

>they care when apps stop allowing them to watch DRMed content or they can’t get the latest version anymore because it requires a newer API version. And what's the cutoff point for that on Android? I have an Android 9 phone I keep around for tinkering and every ap I need still works just fine. > to learn that the phone they “just” bought is no longer supported. In which universe your Android you just bough becomes ou…

> In which universe your Android you just bough becomes outdated?

The real one? I know multiple people who paid decent money ($2-300) for phones they saw on sale while shopping, not realizing that they were close to the end of the manufacturer’s run and about to stop getting updates. I used to have a Lenovo tablet which never saw an update to the version of Android released a couple months before the hardware shipped, and stopped getting updates within a year.

I know about this because things like banking apps started nagging them and they asked me for help. Transferring to a new device is scary for a lot of people so this is not a great experience all around.

Another big step function was when security standards started dropping TLS 1.0 or 1.1 and so people who’d been using older devices started getting errors from things they’d been using for years. That’s a bit old by now, but this is still an issue for users of some assistive devices and “smart” appliances which aren’t easy to replace, and is representative of the problems you can hit with an unresponsive vendor and outside services changing due to factors outside of the user’s control - you might scoff and say “that’s so old, who cares?” but that blind person with a Braille display which costs a grand or two to replace probably feels differently.

Re: Apple's iMessage avoids EU's Digital Markets Act regulation

#148

Post by acdha »

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #145
acdha wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, let’s assume the prices I got on Amazon were scammers. Here’s your “€300” A54 at €430: https://www.worten.pt/produtos/smartphone-samsung-galaxy-a54... Here’s the iPhone 12 at €550: https://www.worten.pt/produtos/iphone-12-apple-6-1-64-gb-pre... Now, maybe that extra hundred euros is really critical to you but on the other hand the iPhone will have a service life years longer (it’s over twice as fast), but also…

UI can't control the fact that the Samsung is so expensive in Portugal. It's 100 Euros cheaper where I live. >neither of these is in a price range where you’re moving into prestige territory. It's not about prestige territory, but a stricker price difference of 200 Euros can sway purchase decisions in Europe when a wage is ~2000 Euros.

€2000 is less than half of the average income for Albania and the poorest one in the EU is Bulgaria at 5 times that much.

Re: Apple's iMessage avoids EU's Digital Markets Act regulation

#149

Post by GeekyBear »

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #138
GeekyBear wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Non techie people who buy phones in the real world don't care about stuf they can't see or feel or don't understand Non techie folks care when their insecure phone allows something as important as their bank account to be hacked. The original Google Pixel also came out in 2016, and was completely dropped from support at the end of 2019.

>Non techie folks care when their insecure phone allows something as important as their bank account to be hacked. How many times are we gonna play this boogieman card? As if everyone gets their bank account instantly emptied by hackers the moment their Android is a day out of it's support window. How many times has that actually happened to users of older un-updated Androids in the real world, documented? I know abo…

Did you seriously just pivot from "nobody cares about updates" to bragging that a company with Google's track record in regards to keeping it's promises has made another one?

Re: Apple's iMessage avoids EU's Digital Markets Act regulation

#150

Post by elevatedastalt »

jandrewrogers wrote: post #134
retskrad wrote: post #48

I believe the assertion suggesting that iMessage plays a pivotal role in the success of the iPhone and contributes significantly to Apple's business is inaccurate. The iMessage platform, in itself, does not possess an inherent quality that renders the iPhone more appealing to consumers. On the contrary, it is the iPhone's inherent appeal that enhances the attractiveness of iMessage. The prestige of the iPhone imparts…

I also use WhatsApp and Signal as a daily driver. iMessage is legitimately superior to all other messaging platforms I've used, and it isn't close. iMessage isn't just a text messaging app, it also serves as a shared application fabric. The many iOS objects and apps are integrated into iMessage as first-class things that can be securely shared and seamlessly collaborated on between groups of people over the iMessage…

In short, all the things Google or Microsoft are criticized for are Okay when Apple does it.
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