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Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

centerforbuilding.org

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Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#141

Post by antisthenes »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #49
bouncing wrote: post #2

> In February, I, along with real estate developer Bobby Fijan, went on the Bloomberg podcast Odd Lots to talk about why it’s so hard to find a family-sized apartment in the United States. I argued that North American zoning and building codes work together to drive up the size of multi-bedroom apartments in particular, putting them financially out of reach for many parents raising children. In other words, even if d…

> Just everything in Europe is tiny. T i n y. And frankly, it's not that much cheaper over here either The real kicker is that price of houses / assets is not attached to physical reality any more. Financialization drives up the price of real estate. When the financial markets trade real estate, no-one gives a rat's ass if it's a mansion or a shed - the only thing that matters is that number goes up. As was demonstra…

> Real solution to the housing crisis is to reign in financial markets, it's not anything to do with building.

12 years of ZIRP certainly didn't help. It's a massive payout to the finance sector and to people who had assets to borrow against (or even just a bunch of cash to put in the stock market).

Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#142

Post by bluGill »

fusslo wrote: post #77

I keep seeing these articles pop up. The goal seems to be getting rid of regulations that hinder building European style apartments. I can't help but wonder if this is really a trend people are interested in, OR is there some effort to sway public opinion into deregulating housing. Why do the article ALWAYS mention Europe? Is it a marketing tactic designed to trigger our 'america-europe inferiority complex'? Is it an…

I'm not clear on that either.

We know that in the US newer apartments with all those rules do better in fires than older apartments. We also know that overall housing in Europe does better in fires than housing in the US. The people pushing for this want you to think that the US would do better in fires to adopt European regulations - but a close reading of the above two facts makes it obvious that we are not comparing like things.

That said, the US does have high housing prices, and regulations are part of it. This article clearly points out a real downside to the US codes.

Overall I get the feeling that supporters of this are hiding some facts from me that are important.

Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#143

Post by detourdog »

scythe wrote: post #105
detourdog wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes it even more complicated is that in Massachusetts and I assume other states in Union use the International Building Code to dictate building codes. This means that new construction and significant renovation all fall under the international building codes. I think that the USA doesn't have the existing family sized apartment stock that the market might current be demanding. The other countries by having la…

>International Building Code As I've explained before, it's the World Series of building codes: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39050267

I see what you are saying a number of "national" building codes exist. I imagine in one sense these codes open up one's products to national markets when demonstrated to be compliant.

On the other hand they can also be used as alignment tools to see measure compliance of various markets.

I have noticed a number of modular and manufactured builders will now build to any code standard.

Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#144

Post by DANmode »

wolverine876 wrote: post #109
bluescrn wrote: post #25

'Family' and 'Apartment' are words that don't go very well together. Children/large families can be noisy. And they benefit from safe outdoor space to play. For the childless WFH-er trying to concentrate, it's not much fun when kids noisily use the communal areas of apartment buildings as a playground. I know this from experience. Thankfully, noise-cancelling headphones are pretty good these days.

> For the childless WFH-er trying to concentrate, it's not much fun when kids noisily use the communal areas of apartment buildings as a playground. Personally, I love the sound of kids - it creates an atmosphere of energy, joy, love, a lack of cynicism (such as found in certain HN posts :) ) ... It's a wonderful work environment and a palliative for working with (many) adults. (Sadly, they grow up to be adults like…

Screams and laughter of joy, yes please!

But, lots of parents today let their kids scream as if they're being fucking killed, like they're in some form of serious danger - for hours. When the "serious danger" is their sibling chasing them.

Aside from being rude, this can be really disconcerting.

Because, if you truly live in a community of people who care, some of your neighbors are stopping what they're doing for a minute to listen & make sure the child "screaming bloody murder" is actually fine.

Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#145

Post by wolverine876 »

bluGill wrote: post #117
wolverine876 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Americans simply want a lot more space. Americans will pay the most for the smallest spaces, such as in NY.

Where you live is a compromise. Location has always been a big factor. If you need to live in NY then you need to pay NY rents. If you can move to New Jersey then your prices go down - by you have a longer commute. Different people come up with different answers to this compromise. Imagine you went to those people paying high rent for a small place and moved them to a small town in Montana, keeping the same pay. The…

That misstates the issue in two ways:

> If you need to live in NY ... If you can move to New Jersey ...

That assumes people live in NY because they must, and move to NJ if they can. IME, it's usually quite the opposite! But of course many do prefer - well, they'd prefer Westchester. :)

> The cost of living makes it possible to own a large house in town near everything there is to do, so would they continue to live in a small space anyway?

That's true anywhere, including midtown Manhatten. If someone could afford a nice ranch house with a yard there, they'd buy it! :)

Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#146

Post by JohnFen »

steveBK123 wrote: post #13
JohnFen wrote: post #3

> In other words, even if developers built more two-, three-, and four-bedroom apartments I'm confused. The overwhelming majority of apartments in my state are two and three bedroom ones.

Generally not the case in a lot of HCOL areas. For example in NYC, most new developments are built out something like this: 4 bedrooms - less than 5%, 3 bedrooms - 10%, 2 bedrooms - 30%, 1 bedrooms - 40%, studios - 15%. As a result, the larger units are not just more expensive due to square footage, but the pricing scales non-linearly per square foot because 3+ bedroom units are a rarity. Typically you'll see a 3BR h…

Thanks for the explanation. I suppose the economics of such places are very different from the rest of the nation.

Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#147

Post by pwb25 »

aranchelk wrote: post #71
pwb25 wrote: post #10

basically everything I read about the USA housing market seems so weird, especially in SF/Silicon Valley. They makret themselves as being this "tech area" yet they have 100 year old houses with limits of 2 floors. or big suburbs without anything in them. Where is the uber, airbnb and doordash for housing?

If you're trying to understand the US housing market, do yourself a favor and don't start with the SF Bay Area - it's so twisted into political and ideological knots that the local branch of the Sierra Club fought against eco-friendly (i.e. relatively dense) housing, ostensibly to save a parking garage.

I took that because its the most difference between trying to act as modern and tech focused and being the total opposite. I mean they dont even have 24/7 public transport or trains

Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#148

Post by hooverd »

epistasis wrote: post #15
hooverd wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bobby Floorplans should know that the magic bullet is a land value tax, not single stair.

As a land value tax advocate, I also agree with Bobby Fijan here. There needs to be a way to build these safe, sensible floor plans in the US.

Agreed, it's definitely a "yes, and" scenario.

Re: Why we can’t build family-sized apartments in North America

#150

Post by wolverine876 »

DANmode wrote: post #144
wolverine876 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For the childless WFH-er trying to concentrate, it's not much fun when kids noisily use the communal areas of apartment buildings as a playground. Personally, I love the sound of kids - it creates an atmosphere of energy, joy, love, a lack of cynicism (such as found in certain HN posts :) ) ... It's a wonderful work environment and a palliative for working with (many) adults. (Sadly, they grow up to be adults like…

Screams and laughter of joy, yes please! But, lots of parents today let their kids scream as if they're being fucking killed , like they're in some form of serious danger - for hours . When the "serious danger" is their sibling chasing them. Aside from being rude, this can be really disconcerting . Because, if you truly live in a community of people who care, some of your neighbors are stopping what they're doing for…

Lol. I know that kid! Maybe we're neighbors? :) Seriously, that kid needs a little more love, attention, and maybe a doctor.
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