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EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

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Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#141

Post by [deleted] »

izacus wrote: post #94
ouroborosidiots wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> driving up the cost of living for locals. That means they are spending a lot of money they earn on the local economy itself no? So even if their taxes are higher, if they are creating value in the economy, the locals do end up seeing those benefits imo. From the perspective of a someone in country that loses a lot of talented/educated citizens to brain drain, If i were in charge of a country to which high skilled i…

What kind of money are they spending? Besides money directly transferred to wealth land owners via rents, some service owners, the rest goes back to savings to be spend after leaving the country. How are most netherlanders actually benefiting here?

[deleted]

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#142

Post by izacus »

ouroborosidiots wrote: post #122
izacus wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kind of money are they spending? Besides money directly transferred to wealth land owners via rents, some service owners, the rest goes back to savings to be spend after leaving the country. How are most netherlanders actually benefiting here?

Land owners do end up paying tax on all the money they earn no? And if people are living in a country, they still tend to spend at least 50-60% of it in the local economy itself. (Anecdotal numbers based on expat friends' spending there). So the expats spend their home country resources for 20-25 years to get educated and be qualified enough to leave it and contribute to a different country's economy, taxes. Now the…

So basically you're making living for locals unaffordable to trade of for tiny amount of taxes from expats and tiny amount of landowner taxes (which are avoided if possible via tax avoidance schemes)?

Sounds like a terrible tradeoff, isn't it?

I also don't get your focus on education, this is Europe, not US where college costs 200.000EUR per person, the aggregate education costs don't even come close to tax breaks.

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#143

Post by pjc50 »

apexalpha wrote: post #90

The EU is simply too scared to actually put it's foot down. If they really want to, they can just limit the export of ASML machines only to companies that have at least one of their fabs here in the EU. But they won't. In stead they will just handover €30 billion of public money to multinational corporations with market caps larger than the yearly GDP of some EU countries. Edit: For clarity, I'm not suggesting bannin…

> they can just limit the export of ASML machines only to companies that have a fab here in the EU

This kills the crab.

Specifically, that would force the development of a (probably taxpayer-funded) US competitor. Even at the cost of delaying the shrink cycle by a few years.

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#144

Post by romwell »

roenxi wrote: post #134
apexalpha wrote: post #90

The EU is simply too scared to actually put it's foot down. If they really want to, they can just limit the export of ASML machines only to companies that have at least one of their fabs here in the EU. But they won't. In stead they will just handover €30 billion of public money to multinational corporations with market caps larger than the yearly GDP of some EU countries. Edit: For clarity, I'm not suggesting bannin…

ASML isn't guarding profound insights revealed by the gods requiring some sort of eternal liver pecking sacrifice to obtain. If the EU plays hardball to too great an extent, other countries will replicate the research. China will already have started their attempts. It isn't crazy to expect them to achieve success single handedly. If all of Asia starts mucking in the EU will get crushed. The EU does not have a track…

>ASML isn't guarding profound insights revealed by the gods requiring some sort of eternal liver pecking sacrifice to obtain.

As someone who's worked in semiconductors... [citation needed] on that claim.

>If the EU plays hardball to too great an extent, other countries will replicate the research.

If they could have, they would have. Many have been trying, and still are.

>China will already have started their attempts.

Not "will have". China has been trying to catch up for many years.

> The EU does not have a track record of staying ahead when they tangle with Asians for tech manufacturing supremacy.

You're just lumping "Asians" into one group, aren't you? China, Japan, Taiwan, Korea have very different strengths.

>The EU can't parlay a temporary monopoly held by one manufacturing company into a useful strategic edge.

Oh they absolutely can. So can Taiwan (and does so pretty successfully).

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#145

Post by logifail »

hnbad wrote: post #119
logifail wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As for flight readiness: that has nothing to do with how many children von der Leyen has Indeed not. Perhaps that's the reason the joke is funny? We could sanitise the joke to become "Germany's defence minister had more fingers than working fighter aircraft" I suppose. Would that be better? The real issue is VdL's history of failure, not the jokes about it.

No, the problem with the joke is that it doesn't just make fun of her, it also uses the fact that she is a woman and mother to make that joke. This plays into sexism and misogyny by implying that both of these things made her unfit for office by default. Note how the "sanitized" version using fingers instead of children doesn't really have any oomph to it - the sexism is not just window dressing, it's what makes the…

> problem with the joke [..] denying that it's sexist or misogynist

Opinions differ on this. There are women who find the joke funny and who don't think it's sexist, and FWIW my wife is one of them.

> VdL is a terrible politician

At least we agree on that :)

> I strongly oppose her value system

Does she have a value system?

"it’s hard to imagine a more telling example of the EU’s complete lack of transparency, disregard for democracy and unsavoury cosiness with big business — and of the cronyism and corruption that has characterised the entire Covid management, and the vaccine rollout in particular — than a Commission president personally making a deal worth tens of billions of euros with a Big Pharma CEO. Then add to that the refusal to disclose the texts in question, or even the contracts related to the purchase, despite multiple requests by some of the highest EU bodies [..] What are they so afraid of?"

https://unherd.com/thepost/pfizer-and-ursula-von-der-leyen-t...

EDIT: to add, it's not the first time VdL has done this kind of thing:

'The German Defense Ministry has been accused of sabotaging parliament's attempts to investigate a defense consultancy affair, after data from the official phone of former Defense Minister Ursula von der Leyen was deleted "for security reasons," according to the ministry.

Bundestag MPs have described "annoying stalling tactics" and "a real scandal" after the Defense Ministry revealed, after months of uncertainty, that von der Leyen's old phone was wiped in August, well after the parliamentarians had applied to have it classified as evidence. German daily Die Welt reported that the admission, made by a government official during a hearing on Thursday, sparked a heated row between MPs of different parties in the Bundestag hallways.

Von der Leyen [..] spent millions of euros of the German defense budget on consultancy contracts, as part of efforts to re-equip the German military during her six-year tenure.

Germany's official Federal Audit Office reported that the ministry had given massive contracts to consultancy firms without first opening a competition or assessing the offers for economic value.'

https://www.dw.com/en/german-defense-ministry-illegally-wipe...

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#146

Post by hef19898 »

jbverschoor wrote: post #137

EU has no money for anything. We're "commies". ASML already announced they're leaving the Netherlands. No 100% with those words, but they already know where they're going.

And where is ASML leaving the communist European block to? If it is so clear, you should be able at least to tell us the destination. Props if you link to some sources confirming the future move.

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#147

Post by apexalpha »

robertlagrant wrote: post #140
apexalpha wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They wouldn't have to put all their fabs here. But if they want the latest ASML machines they need to have at least one big fab inside the EU, or else they only get one generation back. There's only a handful of companies in the world producing chips at scale, so it wouldn't be too out of the question. You could even invite the Chinese to put their fabs in the EU so that they get a chip sector they control but also m…

Isn't it better (though harder) to have a good environment for building things than to just write protectionist rules?

It should probably go hand in hand. The US federal government is spending a lot of money on getting fabs to the US. But they also banned ASML from exporting their machines to China.

So they're simply doing both.

Furthermore, the EU is more expensive than other countries because we have stricter environmental standards and our people don't want to work 50+ hours a week as many in Asia do.

Letting Asian countries simply undercut your own homegrown companies because of these two (dis)advantages seems shortsighted.

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#148

Post by andy_ppp »

roenxi wrote: post #134
apexalpha wrote: post #90

The EU is simply too scared to actually put it's foot down. If they really want to, they can just limit the export of ASML machines only to companies that have at least one of their fabs here in the EU. But they won't. In stead they will just handover €30 billion of public money to multinational corporations with market caps larger than the yearly GDP of some EU countries. Edit: For clarity, I'm not suggesting bannin…

ASML isn't guarding profound insights revealed by the gods requiring some sort of eternal liver pecking sacrifice to obtain. If the EU plays hardball to too great an extent, other countries will replicate the research. China will already have started their attempts. It isn't crazy to expect them to achieve success single handedly. If all of Asia starts mucking in the EU will get crushed. The EU does not have a track…

I dunno, the issue with government picking the winners is there’s plenty of people who like money out there and sound very convincing. Even selecting the best people you still might not build what ASML have. I’m not even sure they can produce the mirrors needed for EUV let alone the laser light source and all the tens of thousands of other technologies that are in these machines. It’s extremely hard and China is in a recession and property crisis right now.

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#149

Post by hef19898 »

jacquesm wrote: post #20
jojobas wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's pretty insane an assumption. If the US wanted ASML so badly they'd piecemeal buy the most important bits, not waste trillions on NATO. Also of all things the only real European adversary could target, some fragile equipment and ephemeral IP isn't not one.

The opposite is what really happened. ASMLs EUV wouldn't have happened without strategically acquiring US entities.

Is the tech ASML has to get US export approval for coming from, or containing, tech from those acquisitions? Because if so, having to ask for US government approval is actually pretty standard.

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#150

Post by baq »

apexalpha wrote: post #90

The EU is simply too scared to actually put it's foot down. If they really want to, they can just limit the export of ASML machines only to companies that have at least one of their fabs here in the EU. But they won't. In stead they will just handover €30 billion of public money to multinational corporations with market caps larger than the yearly GDP of some EU countries. Edit: For clarity, I'm not suggesting bannin…

> If they really want to, they can just limit the export of ASML machines only to companies that have a fab here in the EU.

US gets really unhappy and makes Taiwan ban exports of TSMC chips and products containing TSMC chips to EU. Oops.

EU would've to onshore the whole supply chain first. Probably a 100B-1T€, 10-30y endavour. Good luck with that.

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