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Expert sounds alarm on new wave of US opioids crisis

theguardian.com

141–150 of 202 posts

Re: Expert sounds alarm on new wave of US opioids crisis

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are having a discussion about opiate addiction, and you have failed to explain why the US's broken healthcare system is an important contributor to that problem. I certainly don't see how your experience with childbirth is relevant -- or bipolar disorder or ADHD. Do you imagine for example that the non-broken healthcare systems of the world are what is preventing opiate addiction there from becoming as severe as i…

I mean, if medical care were expensive and difficult to access, you’d certainly expect more use of opioids, because they’re a cheap solution to chronic pain relative to more measured approaches. And it certainly does seem that the US opioid crisis was worst in extremely poor areas with limited medical care available.

Sure, but opioids are also a cheap solution to loneliness and to a chronic feeling of alienation and of "not belonging" caused by living in a society optimized for individual freedom and economic efficiency. I have yet to see reasons in this comment section to believe that access to healthcare specifically is the human need whose lack is driving most of the cases addiction in the US.

Most young adults have no pressing need for healthcare except possibly birth-control pills for the young women (since those require a prescription in the US) and if the millions of young adults in the US who have become addicts during this crisis had unmet health-care needs at a significantly higher rate than their counterparts who did not become addicts, addiction researchers would almost certainly have noticed by now, and I probably would've heard about it from journalists who cover the issue.

Re: Expert sounds alarm on new wave of US opioids crisis

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a good point but you really need to have a comparison when you say your healthcare is crumbling. Are you talking about specialized care? I think healthcare in the US is beyond messed up. In my area which is a large city in the North East US it is very difficult to be able to get into ER because rooms are filled with people who are trying to get non-urgent care. These people have no money, no insurance and the…

I'm talking about general and specialist care in the public system. Our private system is pretty good but you either need to pay insurance for it or, if the public wait-list extends beyond 6 months for surgical treatment, our public healthcare will pay for you to be referred to a private hospital. The less said about our mental healthcare the better. > I also did not get your last paragraph are you talking about the…

While it’s a crude metric, the US is 42 on that scale (usually rendered as 0.42), so significantly worse.

Re: Expert sounds alarm on new wave of US opioids crisis

#143
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My mom worked as an ER physician in Pennington Gap, VA during the early years of opioid abuse there (late nineties through through the early oughts) [1]. She would constantly complain about drug seekers there and refused to give out pain meds. According to her, she was the only doctor who would refuse to give out pain meds. Fast forward to 2022, she needed heart surgery and was in the ICU for three weeks afterward. S…

I remember going to the dentist a number of times a few years back and they always prescribed me something crazy like percs, vicodin, oxy, etc. I never actually got any of the scripts filled because by then I had read too may stories about the opioid crisis and was determined to never venture down that road. I did notice once the opioid crisis really hit the mainstream press, my dentist stopped prescribing those stro…

Back in 2007 an oral surgeon gave me an opioid painkiller prescription after a routine tooth extraction. I never filled it but in retrospect it seems crazy how they were handing out those scripts like nothing.

Re: Expert sounds alarm on new wave of US opioids crisis

#144
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Scandinavian I find this an odd take on the situation. To me it seems like the US has a very, very, broken healthcare system that you’ve chosen to have by electing politicians who aren’t going to reform it into something reasonable. My wife and I presently had twins, and we spent 7 days living in the hospital with a lot of help from nurses and so on, and it cost us $130. Which was me paying for 3 days of living…

>But maybe I just don’t understand your country well enough? You really don't. You live in a country that is either 11 million or 6 million people with fully enforceable border controls and immigration controls. You can control who comes into you country. You can control the goods that come into your country. Your population rivals one of the larger metropolitan areas of the USA. Problems don't scale linearly. At 6 m…

The US is a massive, new, mostly empty frontier nation. It's ridiculous to expect the same level of social support as one has in relatively small, old, well-developed European nations.

The GDP difference seems more than enough to counter it, maybe, but socially, geographically, and historically, the US is a relatively libertarian project where "high taxes and free healthcare" are anathema.

Re: Expert sounds alarm on new wave of US opioids crisis

#145
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Scandinavian I find this an odd take on the situation. To me it seems like the US has a very, very, broken healthcare system that you’ve chosen to have by electing politicians who aren’t going to reform it into something reasonable. My wife and I presently had twins, and we spent 7 days living in the hospital with a lot of help from nurses and so on, and it cost us $130. Which was me paying for 3 days of living…

>But maybe I just don’t understand your country well enough? You really don't. You live in a country that is either 11 million or 6 million people with fully enforceable border controls and immigration controls. You can control who comes into you country. You can control the goods that come into your country. Your population rivals one of the larger metropolitan areas of the USA. Problems don't scale linearly. At 6 m…

I want to help this train of thought along because this is interesting to me and I'd love to get a discussion going.

> Back to borders and immigration: You control your borders. You can say that drugs don't enter your country. And they won't (at scale, at least). In the USA that's not enforceable because the country is so large. Illinois can say that they ban guns. But that doesn't stop them from going to Indiana and getting them. Or Kentucky. Or Missouri.

Short of draconian measures like in China (also a very large country), which nobody wants.

> Your local change can only accomplish so much when you are against the tide of your neighbors. You can say that you want to control your borders. But your neighbors disagree. So they go around you controls and infiltrate your economy anyway. And you don't know how bad it really is. Because statistics are an approximation of a segment of a population that doesn't want to be tracked. But these people still get sick. And some costs are fixed. So your publicly funded hospitals still need money to cover their costs by people who will flee and not pay. So you privatize and offset the burden on the patient. Because people can pay for themselves to get a blood test. You relieve your burden on the system, for the moment. But now companies charge more because they also know that certain costs are fixed and people are willing to tolerate more costs for a relatively inexpensive service. And of course, they optimize. Because there's nothing stopping them. Since you can't tell them not to do something when you can't solve the problem yourself. And here we are.

This is what I want to dig into. The heart of this argument is that publicly funded hospitals are forced to cover for those who neither contributing to the system nor are paying out-of-pocket for it.

> So your publicly funded hospitals still need money to cover their costs by people who will flee and not pay. So you privatize and offset the burden on the patient.

Are you certain the EMTALA is really the cause of the problems we see today? I agree that it made it worse, but the cost of medical care was ballooning before the 1980s. I'm not sure what it was so I'd love to hear input from you or others.

Still, you do bring up a good point: Given that you have individuals that can't contribute to the system even if they would otherwise and given that it will also balloon costs, how do we solve this?

Perhaps its a taxation issue.

I doubt this will ever get traction but I'd love to see a compromise where we replace the blanket constitutional right where "you're a citizen if you're born here" with something different but equivalent at the amendment level.

Chasing down and returning migrants--this just funds the very problematic human traffickers--is a bandaid solution; it's inefficient; and it doesn't solve the needs of both Americans as well as our neighbors.

Instead, why not just ID them on the spot--state level with RealID, to make it palatable--make them pay a fine that is effectively the cost of a tax to fund the public infrastructure; and make such an ID either the requirement of using the triage service.

Or if they're undocumented, just treat them once and give them a choice after triage: Deportation or ID.

Carelessly thought out, I think that this sets up a two-tier residency system ripe for abuse: If said "temp" residents had children, what's the status of their children, for example.

Re: Expert sounds alarm on new wave of US opioids crisis

#146

I was in the care of a pain clinic when the fire hose was abruptly shut off. I wasn't being given oxycontin, but I still suffered from the sudden change. I went from sustainable maintenance to a drug that gave me serious side effects, but the doctors refused to listen. Even when a sleep study objectively showed the damage the buprenorphine was doing, I was told it's that or nothing. The doctors were terrified of new…

The harm to society of people who need them not getting pain drugs far outweighs the pain to society of those who don’t need them abusing them. I’ve had similar experiences with them not giving me proper painmeds are having all 4 of my wisdom teeth removed. They gave me 2 weeks of Tylenol #3 and some homeopathic bullshit and expected that to be good enough. Luckily my stepdad is a serious medical patient with lots of…

> The harm to society of people who need them not getting pain drugs far outweighs the pain to society of those who don’t need them abusing them.

How do you measure that? Opioid overdoses accounted for at least 72,800 deaths last year [0] and there are countless more addicts out there whose entire lives are ruined because of that addiction. Many of those people, if they ever recover, will never take opioids again for any real medical pain relief like you did for your wisdom teeth because of the very real risk of relapse. Additionally, opioid withdrawal is, according to almost everyone who's gone through it, is one of the worst experiences you can feel.

I'm not taking the side that it definitely doesn't outwheigh the need of those who genuinely need them. On the whole I actually probably agree with that. But stating that so confidently and ignoring the very real pain, lost lives, and broken families caused by opioid addiction because you had your wisdom teeth pulled and wanted opioids feels pretty dismissive and not a serious argument.

[0]https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/72/wr/mm7226a4.htm

Re: Expert sounds alarm on new wave of US opioids crisis

#147

A few years ago, I talked to three retired federal law enforcement agents who had each spent 20+ years fighting the cartels that were bringing drugs into the US from Mexico and South America. All three felt betrayed by the US government. They said, essentially, "We put our lives on the line many times to try to stop the flow of drugs. Then the government turned around and basically gave the pharmaceuticals license to…

Florida has a history of being supported by and enabling drug money.

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2021/aug/03/cocaine...

Re: Expert sounds alarm on new wave of US opioids crisis

#148
post #109
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've actually been offered fentanyl for medical procedures that involved moderate discomfort several times. I refused it and endured the pain. The physicians had never seen anyone do that before.

It's different for surgery, in a hospital, if that's what you are referring to. But for take-home use, it's nearly non-existent in much of Europe.

I don't think that fentanyl would ever be prescribed for home use, but I could be wrong.

Hydrocodone was sent home recently with a family member after surgery, any this same person had oxycontin years before after a broken leg.

I've only seen fentanyl as an injected solution in hospital settings, including my own.

Re: Expert sounds alarm on new wave of US opioids crisis

#149
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

To a small extent you are correct, but a larger factor is automaton. It doesn't take that many people to grow food or extract resources anymore. The people that don't exist don't need grocery stores, bars, restaurants, or barbers either. We would still be in this situation even without immigration or overseas trade.

No way.

https://www.nps.gov/articles/000/terrain-of-struggle.htm

https://www.farmworkerjustice.org/about-farmworker-justice/w...

I'm not knowledgeable on agriculture, but even a city-boy like myself has read-up on how much we rely on migrant labor during harvesting season.

Re: Expert sounds alarm on new wave of US opioids crisis

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, if medical care were expensive and difficult to access, you’d certainly expect more use of opioids, because they’re a cheap solution to chronic pain relative to more measured approaches. And it certainly does seem that the US opioid crisis was worst in extremely poor areas with limited medical care available.

Sure, but opioids are also a cheap solution to loneliness and to a chronic feeling of alienation and of "not belonging" caused by living in a society optimized for individual freedom and economic efficiency. I have yet to see reasons in this comment section to believe that access to healthcare specifically is the human need whose lack is driving most of the cases addiction in the US. Most young adults have no pressin…

> . I have yet to see reasons in this comment section to believe that access to healthcare specifically is the human need whose lack is driving most of the cases addiction in the US.

Oh, yeah, I’m not saying that healthcare is the only factor or even the most important factor, just that it is relevant (and it does seem to be where the US opioid crisis _started_; oxycodone and similar were made available in ludicrous quantities as a substitute for actual medical care).

Granted, it is probably much harder to put the genie back in the bottle now it’s out there.

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