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Electric Car Owners Confront a Harsh Foe: Cold Weather

nytimes.com

141–150 of 230 posts

Re: Electric Car Owners Confront a Harsh Foe: Cold Weather

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

quick, someone tell that small rural community of 600 people they need public transportation! When people express opinions like this you immediately know they live in the city and think everyone else does too.

Unless you look back 70 years and realize that many small towns only existed because they had rail (passenger and goods). (and/or private bus service). Turns out, getting your goods to market before every person had a car was a requirement.

Exactly! People say, "rural communities need cars". And sure, new sprawl does need cars, like whatever shat itself over the Front Range. But a lot of old towns had trains. Or stage coaches. Or, later, busses. You see this all over the Old West, and New England, and the Rust Belt. These little towns grew up before there were cars.

You still see this in rural Europe. There will be some little village in the middle of nowhere. But the shops and (now I'm picturing the north of England) a pub will all be in a cluster, and there are country lanes that you can actually walk on, and in that village center there's a bus stop, from which you can get to Carlisle or Newcastle and thence to Durham, or wherever.

Some developing countries too actually. You couldn't backpack around these places if they didn't have busses. The "third world" is often a better place to be a pedestrian than America is. Because everybody else is a pedestrian too.

America's problem is that all the private investment in railroads has been displaced by public investment in highways. It's Eisenhower's fault. It makes sense that the US would invest in dual use technologies for mechanized warfare, but it sucks to have to live with.

And now -- I like bike paths, but -- rails-to-trails efforts are just an admission of defeat. But they're what we're getting instead now.

Re: Electric Car Owners Confront a Harsh Foe: Cold Weather

#142
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real blunder in this country is the lack of viable alternative transportation options in a majority of the nation. Visited NYC recently and didn’t need to rent a car. Primarily took the bus, ferry, and rail car/trains. In some cases I just walked from my hotel to the destination. Could have rented one of the e-bikes as well. Transportation costs for just 1 week were less than $100 (a quarter of this was because o…

... but a small apartment costs $4000 in NYC which would cover the payment, gas, insurance and everything on two or three big SUVs. Without some revolution in the cost structure of urban life, "transit friendly" is going to look like going from the frying pan to the fire for most people.

True. But I'd say that all that proves is that there's so much demand for not needing to own a personal automobile! And yet, cities aren't like private businesses; they don't do what's in demand. Instead of spending millions on public transportation, they spend billions on more roads to suburbs because that's what they are used to, and why the hell not? What good will come to elected officials from millions of car-free millennials streaming in from all over the country? That will just jack up rents, because, let's face it, no one city can absorb the demand anyway. My home city, Portland, put in modest light rail and painted some bike lanes, which caused some new people to move in. That pissed everyone off, and all transit development abruptly stopped. Desirable city == pissed off locals, and the locals vote!

So we have shitty apartments in Manhattan where the land is 99% of the cost and countless, cookie cutter suburban hellscapes.

Re: Electric Car Owners Confront a Harsh Foe: Cold Weather

#143
post #93
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not exactly accurate. Pick a car - say a Mustang Mach-e: a standard 15A outlet is going to charge at 4miles/hr. Say you get home a 6pm, never go anywhere, and leave it plugged in overnight - that's 48 miles of range. If you're talking dead of winter in Chicago in negative temps, assume half that. Long story short: a 15A outlet really isn't going to get the job done for charging a car. Also you cannot just char…

Do people need 48 miles (or 24 miles if the charging is slow because of the temperature) of range every day? Genuine question, I don't know what driving in that area is like, i.e. nearest grocery story could be 10 miles?

24 miles because the vehicle is less efficient and the heater is in use. Charging with a 120V 12A charger is when cold is a different question. Attached garage? Probably not a big deal. Outside? You might use all the power available to heat the battery for charging, fail to meet the minimum temperature, and then not charge at all. You REALLY want more power for charging than that. Even just 240V 12A prevents the 0 charge even after 12 hours due to cold problem afaik.

Re: Electric Car Owners Confront a Harsh Foe: Cold Weather

#144
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real blunder in this country is the lack of viable alternative transportation options in a majority of the nation. Visited NYC recently and didn’t need to rent a car. Primarily took the bus, ferry, and rail car/trains. In some cases I just walked from my hotel to the destination. Could have rented one of the e-bikes as well. Transportation costs for just 1 week were less than $100 (a quarter of this was because o…

quick, someone tell that small rural community of 600 people they need public transportation! When people express opinions like this you immediately know they live in the city and think everyone else does too.

What percentage of Americans live in a community with 600 or fewer people?

There are very few policy decisions that will be universally good for everyone. That doesn't automatically make them bad policies.

Re: Electric Car Owners Confront a Harsh Foe: Cold Weather

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confused that these people are confused. Why did they buy an EV if they don't have a place to charge it. It's like buying a surfboard while living in Iowa.

Well, there is a narrative out there that the ICE is dead and everyone should be driving electric. The media always neglects to add the caveat that the electric future has arrived only for garage-owning suburbanites.

Yes, banning the sale of brand new non-EVs in a decade's time is often presented by people with an agenda as if everyone needs to switch to EVs overnight.

This is frankly silly though. In reality the EV sales will ramp over time and then ICEs age out of the fleet over multiple decades. And that's the timeline that is being attacked as insanely rushed.

Re: Electric Car Owners Confront a Harsh Foe: Cold Weather

#146
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... but a small apartment costs $4000 in NYC which would cover the payment, gas, insurance and everything on two or three big SUVs. Without some revolution in the cost structure of urban life, "transit friendly" is going to look like going from the frying pan to the fire for most people.

True. But I'd say that all that proves is that there's so much demand for not needing to own a personal automobile! And yet, cities aren't like private businesses; they don't do what's in demand. Instead of spending millions on public transportation, they spend billions on more roads to suburbs because that's what they are used to, and why the hell not? What good will come to elected officials from millions of car-fr…

>But I'd say that all that proves is that there's so much demand for not needing to own a personal automobile!

It really doesn't. NYC isn't $ARBITRARY_SUBURB except without obligatory car ownership.

Re: Electric Car Owners Confront a Harsh Foe: Cold Weather

#147

I find myself a bit of an outcast in my social groups. My conservative friends dislike EVs, but I very much love them and will be buying an EV next. I'm holding out for a solid state battery generation. When it's -40c and you're running the video security systems. It only drains about 1% a day. Yes you have less range, but so does gasoline. About the same amount of loss. Turning it on... harder for gasoline. Better p…

> Yes you have less range, but so does gasoline. About the same amount of loss.

This is absolutely not the case. The worst case scenario for ICEs (cold starts, intermittent short trips so the engine block doesn't get heat) is 15%.

The average for EV in subfreezing is about 24% loss. And up to 39% when you're on longer trips and heating the cabin for extended periods.

Re: Electric Car Owners Confront a Harsh Foe: Cold Weather

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla manual says you need to precondition the battery for upwards of an hour before fast charging in cold weather. That's clearly not an option for the cars that are abandoned and dead because they couldn't charge. It's also not just the one station that was an issue. One guy left his Tesla at the airport parking lot, came back after his trip, and had to pay to get it towed to a charger.

>That's clearly not an option for the cars that are abandoned and dead because they couldn't charge. Plugging in to a charger provides all the power to heat (and slowly charge) the battery, you just won't get full speed while the battery is below-freezing.

In this case, the chargers weren't operating either. There's a whole parking lot (at least one, I heard more but one for sure) full of cars that couldn't go anywhere because there was no power to be had.

Re: Electric Car Owners Confront a Harsh Foe: Cold Weather

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ooooh, you're not talking about retirement communities. One wonders how the hay gets baled if most of the population is elderly people. you don't actually understand what a rural community is.

In my experience, farmers don't live in rural communities. They live on farms. And 90% of them are over the age of 50. Unless it's a Hutterite colony, in which case your point is entirely moot because they have 0 private transport.

now you're getting it. they drive into town because these areas don't have the density that cities do and the towns themselves aren't large enough to justify public transportation, especially considering that even the non-farmers typically will live many miles from where they purchase their groceries, etc.

Re: Electric Car Owners Confront a Harsh Foe: Cold Weather

#150
post #79

This being the first midwest winter I've had a Model Y: there's parts of the experience that are really bad, and parts that aren't as bad as I thought they'd be. I don't have a place to plug it in most evenings, and it is parked outside. So, worst possible conditions. The amount of power the battery just loses overnight doing nothing is extremely predictable; if its -10-0F outside, it will lose 2%. 10F-20F, about 1%.…

> The door SUCKS. Its so stupidly bad that its startlingly obvious no one's fair-weather skin at Tesla in sunny California has ever experienced low temperatures. If the door is iced over, it takes "I'm going to break this" slamming force to break the ice and get the lever exposed. When you do, if the window seam is also iced over it won't recede below the frameless door when you open it, so you inevitably damage the trim every time you open the door (unless, maybe, you kept a blowtorch around to deice the window?)

What's worse is that this isn't a new problem. My Audi has frameless doors, and zero issue opening in the cold.

> None of that feels likely to happen at costs comparable to ICE, even with considerable technology advancements.

That's the other part too - though slightly orthogonal. Way too many Tesla owners seem to believe that auto makers haven't advanced since the 90s, and parade things like adjustable ride height as miraculous, while the "dinosaurs" have nothing of the sort. Meanwhile my car is mapping the road surface, actively leaning into corners and following road camber, actively avoiding potholes, and adjusting the suspension, including ride height, constantly.

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