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Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

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Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#141

Post by andrewstuart »

glitchc wrote: post #139
andrewstuart wrote: post #54

Someone explained to me that the subconscious mind does not like giving up something that it likes in exchange for nothing. Say for example you want to give up smoking. So don't give up. Instead, just stop that behavior for the present time - then your subconscious is not fighting you. So you want a cigarette? Well sure OK you can have one, but defer that decision to have it for some period of time. Maybe start with…

That's still just willpower, usually people need more. A combination of willpower, friction and substitution is usually effective.

>> That's still just willpower

No it's not. Willpower is a brute force decision to stop and then fighting the urge until you beat the urge.

Deferring a decision to do something for increasing periods of time is not fighting yourself. The key is that when the defer period is up, you either do the thing such as smoking a cigarette - unless you are OK to defer a little further. You're not in a fight with yourself. It's just that eventually the defer period becomes so long that its same as stopping entirely.

A strategy of deferring doing something is working with your subconscious mind, not against it.

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#142

Post by criddell »

arp242 wrote: post #136
ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether decision fatigue is a real thing has been called in to question: https://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/cover_stor...

According to the article "hundreds" of experiments showed an effect. Then it goes on to talk about the reproducibility crisis, but in this case it has been reproduced, no? At least, that's what the article itself says. Link to actual debunk study is dead, but "it now appears that ego depletion could be completely bogus" seems too strong. Certainly in my own experience something like ego depletion is very real – maybe…

In my experience, it seems very real as well.

The Wikipedia page has a pretty good rundown on the criticism and existing studies. From my understanding, it isn’t clear that the studies that have been done indicate any depletion effect at all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_depletion#Reproducibility_...

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#143

Post by hinkley »

noirbot wrote: post #138
nozzlegear wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kinds of teas do you like? I dropped my soda habit a long time ago, but I seem to have replaced it with a habit for those dragonfruit juice drinks from Starbucks. I’m trying to get away from that and just make tea at home.

Honestly, if you want soda or wine or beer or such, don't buy "good tea", buy crazy blended teas with maple syrup or fruit in them. Something that's closer to what you're replacing. I feel like part of the difficulty is people trying to replace something that's a lazy comfort consumption with something that feels like a punishment. You don't quit eating McDonalds by going "but I could eat kale instead". You want some…

My definition of fancy teas has become more traditional over time, but you’re right. I started with things like Republic of Tea’s fruity ones. The blueberry hibiscus is still something I drink at night. Or Good Hope Vanilla.

Peach and black tea is quite interesting, because it smells entirely of peaches, but scarcely tastes of them. It’s very much like coffee in that way. Amazing aroma, boring delivery.

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#144

Post by andrewstuart »

anon84873628 wrote: post #137
andrewstuart wrote: post #54

Someone explained to me that the subconscious mind does not like giving up something that it likes in exchange for nothing. Say for example you want to give up smoking. So don't give up. Instead, just stop that behavior for the present time - then your subconscious is not fighting you. So you want a cigarette? Well sure OK you can have one, but defer that decision to have it for some period of time. Maybe start with…

This was posted to HN a few months back and I found it quite interesting: https://gwern.net/nicotine Nicotine itself is very effective at causing the brain to form habits. So that makes quitting cigarettes extra hard! But we may be able to use it as a tool for developing other habits. Glad you managed to find a solution that worked for you. Your technique seems good to stop doing something. But how do you make yourse…

>>But how do you make yourself start doing something you don't want to do?

Like going to the gym?

Well, the same person who advised me on the deferral strategy also advised me on your question.

He said - specifically on the topic of going to the gym and exercising - (paraphrased):

"Stop looking for techniques and mind tricks, for some things in life you must simply take action. You cannot avoid taking action if you want the outcome. There is nothing more to it than taking action. You know what the action required is, do it."

On the topic of going to the gym a (very fit) friend of mine said:

"I do not give myself a choice. I do not negotiate it with myself daily. I do not discuss it with myself. I just go."

When you hear people say "I don't have time to do X/Y/Z" then translate that to "I do not prioritise X/Y/Z high enough to actually do it."

You currently set priorities for yourself every day, every minute, every hour.

If you do something, it is because you prioritised it higher then everything else.

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#145

Post by Levitz »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #105
ceejayoz wrote: post #83

These threads always bring out a whole bunch of people who confuse confirmation bias with population-level statistics. If you kicked a heroin habit, good for you! Societally we still can’t use “suck it up you pansies” as a drug rehab strategy just on your say-so.

I think that is because it is a terrible message. It isnt an either/or situation, and successful breaking habits does rely on willpower, just not willpower alone . Smart strategy can make things easier , but there is no strategy that makes it easier to stop heroin than do to keep it. It advertises the idea that with the right circumstances, you can make it so that the desirable option is always the easiest option - t…

I beg to differ, and we know this. Want to stop taking heroin? Stop surrounding yourself with people who take heroin. See a medical professional. Get away from wherever you get the heroin. Try to get your life in order so you have other things to look forward to.

It's a terrible, terrible idea to just "stop taking heroin". Pray tell, if you see someone who is an heroin addict and they say they are going to stop it and make no changes to their life, do you believe for a single second they are going to succeed? Hell no.

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#146

Post by arp242 »

andrewstuart wrote: post #54

Someone explained to me that the subconscious mind does not like giving up something that it likes in exchange for nothing. Say for example you want to give up smoking. So don't give up. Instead, just stop that behavior for the present time - then your subconscious is not fighting you. So you want a cigarette? Well sure OK you can have one, but defer that decision to have it for some period of time. Maybe start with…

I quit smoking twice; once about 15 years ago, and then again last year (I started again during COVID lockdowns), both on the first (serious) attempt. Both times went relatively easy, the tricks were 1) make sure to scrub everything from everything smoking-related, 2) don't have friends who smoke, and 3) make sure you have $stuff to do (work, games, TV, books, whatever).

Especially 1) and 2) are what this article is about: make it harder to do $bad_thing and don't be reminded of it.

I don't think I'd be able to quit if cigarettes were easily available to me.

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#147

Post by j7ake »

I find it effective to break an old habit by establishing new ones.

For example, the author probably had a bunch of old habits that got superseded once they got a smartphone.

Need to find something else that can dominate over smartphone usage. For example reading a book, listening to music, watching a movie, or doing sports.

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#148

Post by pugz »

lannisterstark wrote: post #128
Boogie_Man wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cigs: Not telling him he couldn't smoke, but that he could only smoke outside bare-chested one winter Eating: Mirror at gut hight in the kitchen Drinking: Reading that Infinite Jest section [pick one] twice a week Weed: Picked a fist fight with the guy I bought it from (he won) (this section is just a joke I do not commit crimes) The only thing a human man can't give up is onanism (I don't believe those who say they…

>(this section is just a joke I do not commit crimes) It's not a crime if you both consent.

That's actually an interesting one - it depends on your jurisdiction. E.g. in all Australian jurisdictions (and quite a few US states), one cannot consent to serious bodily harm. Some jurisdictions allow consent as a defence for "lower" assaults that don't meet the threshold of serious bodily harm. In Australia (I'm not as familiar with other countries), there are usually explicit carve-outs for sports like boxing, but only when under the purview of a licensed boxing authority.

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#149

Post by yCombLinks »

andrewstuart wrote: post #54

Someone explained to me that the subconscious mind does not like giving up something that it likes in exchange for nothing. Say for example you want to give up smoking. So don't give up. Instead, just stop that behavior for the present time - then your subconscious is not fighting you. So you want a cigarette? Well sure OK you can have one, but defer that decision to have it for some period of time. Maybe start with…

Atomic habits is about exactly this. The given strategy is to identify what triggers your habit and replace the negative habit with a more healthy one. Your brain still gets the trigger reward loop so it's much easier

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#150

Post by em-bee »

jacquesm wrote: post #124

That may well be true. But will power is extremely important in resisting peer pressure and the start of the creation of (some) bad habits.

here too, willpower alone is not enough. you also need good rolemodels and support (pressure?) from their side to help you.
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