"That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends." • Hacker News Board

Re: "That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

#141

Post by Spyro7 » Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 5:59 PM UTC

driverdan wrote: post #98

Spyro7 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I understand that sheltering them from the real world is not your motivation for this opinion, but it is the reality of what will happen. Your kids will miss out on a huge period of personal growth and a large expansion of their experience dealing with other people which they will never be able to get back later." It is not necessarily the case that being homeschooled automatically equates to a child that has been s…

You seriously just cited something from the Discovery Institute, a group that believes a book trumps scientific evidence? They have a strong agenda that includes homeschooling. The article you cited is not research, it's an internally created, non-peer reviewed meta review. Not exactly high quality material. I'm not saying your argument is necessarily wrong, just that you found some of the worst possible material to…

My apologies.

I never intended anyone to take the Discovery Institute paper as anything more than just a casual study of the subject (by a biased party). I certainly did not want to present it as academically rigorous on any level or as an unbiased look at the subject.

I thought that I had made this clear in my original post by using the word "study" rather than "research" or "peer-reviewed study". I really meant for it to be taken as more of a narrative account than an actual research paper. Unfortunately, it is now far too late for me to amend my original post to make this more clear.

In my defense, I typed up my post in a blaze of coffee-fueled self-righteous indignation. Mistakes tend to happen a lot when you shoot from the hip like that.

Re: "That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

#142

Post by nickik » Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 6:14 PM UTC

kitsune_ wrote: post #102

nickik wrote: post #55

Nice, that will help him alot. As somebody from Europe, we always see these typical American High Schools and think it can really be like this. Sure they overdo it in movies but I have read a fair amount of blogpost and reddit comments that discribe the same problem. There is grouping and groupe think too in Schools here but not in the same extrem way. It could be selection bios on my part but lets look at the diffre…

I'm from Switzerland and the reality that you miss is that a lot of students will be thrown into the Realschule (lowest tier of secondary education in Switzerland) for a variety of reasons, including spiteful teachers or foreign parents who fail to understand the magnitude of this decision. Often the path is already being set at the Kindergarten age with inept teachers who are unable to properly educate foreign speak…

> I'm from Switzerland and the reality that you miss is that a lot of students will be thrown into the Realschule (lowest tier of secondary education in Switzerland) for a variety of reasons, including spiteful teachers or foreign parents who fail to understand the magnitude of this decision. Often the path is already being set at the Kindergarten age with inept teachers who are unable to properly educate foreign speaking pupils. From then on it's a direct path to the Realschule and later a string of two or three failed attempts at getting a professional education (as a semi-skilled cook, hair stylist, whatever)

This is true and it is a problem with this splitting up system. What has to be said is that when you have the will you can still move out of it. There are briges at every level. Even when you are one your way to become a hairdresser you can to the "matura" and get into some universety.

This has to be added to the list of problems, with this kind of system.

> Another reality you seem to ignore is the fact that even intelligent people can be rowdy assholes.

My Gymnasium (high school) class was filled with them. They smoked blunts all day, lighted up books in front of the teachers, even brought some teachers to tears, they bullied kids and so on. They were very excellent students and didn't have to learn for exams.

Sure there allways assholes but I think its fair to say that less of that stuff goes on in such a split system. Smart kids slacking of is pretty common (I would guess that weed is more popular in these schools), the question is how bad would it have been in a uniform high school.

What form of bulling? Was there really physical stuff?

Im really into individual learning its the only way to prevent better studends from slacking of and distrupting class, bored people always act stupid.

> In conclusion, from personal experience the Swiss education system has deep flaws.

I had more or less good experiences. I just wanted to show the diffrence in the system, not praise it.

In my opinion its time for a huge reform in most education systems but that not really the thread to talk about that.

Re: "That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

#143

Post by WalterBright » Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 6:15 PM UTC

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #68

I'm about as asocial and celebratory of diversity as they come, and I love this essay, especially the conversational style. But I'd be careful not to take this argument too far into sophistry. In school people clan and desperately look for some identity to copy. This leads to all the terrible social behavior you see in most secondary and high school in the U.S. Somebody calling you "weird" can really be a badge of ho…

> Schools are full of a bunch of people who all are very proud of being different, just like everybody else.

I love the old Dr. Pepper ads - Join the non-conformists!

Re: "That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

#144

Post by nickik » Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 6:21 PM UTC

rickmb wrote: post #121

nickik wrote: post #55

Nice, that will help him alot. As somebody from Europe, we always see these typical American High Schools and think it can really be like this. Sure they overdo it in movies but I have read a fair amount of blogpost and reddit comments that discribe the same problem. There is grouping and groupe think too in Schools here but not in the same extrem way. It could be selection bios on my part but lets look at the diffre…

US schools have a much broader social role than schools in Europe, and therefor tend to form a social universe of their own. In Europe virtually all activities that are not directly related to being in a classroom happen outside the school, and so kids are more likely to have multiple social circles. Or in other words: going to school in Europa resembles going to work as an adult much more than in the US.

I think thats an importen observation. I don't think the government has to for diffrent sport programmes. In the small (5000-6000) people village I live there are so many diffrent clubs you can go to, I don't think a school could practicly provid all the deversety.

What happens alot more in the US seams to be other kinds of clubs (movie-knowledge). You seem to have AudioVideo, Math, Spelling clubs that one rearly sees in Switzerland.

Re: "That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

#145

Post by nickik » Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 6:25 PM UTC

adam-a wrote: post #123

rgoddard wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the big differences is just the size of the schools. I was in Ireland for 8th and 9th grade. The school I went to consisted of grades 6th-12th with a total of around 300 students, with 48 kids in my grade. My graduation class from high school back in the US was around 600. My high school consisted of 10th-12th grade with around 1800 students total. This difference in size makes a huge impact in the different c…

My secondary/high school had 300-400 kids per year, about 1500 over the 4 years it covered. Though my previous two schools to that were much smaller, I think it's generally common here for junior schools to be smaller than senior schools. And I think you're right, smaller schools probably have less of a chance of large distinct social groups forming. Perhaps there is a tipping point though, where these groups form, I…

There where only about 50 people in my age at the school, there is not as much diversety possible. You cant just hang out with 'the goths' or whatever, chances are there arn't enought to form a distinct social group. You get to know almost everybody, that means there is less jugment purly on visual marks.

Re: "That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

#146

Post by evincarofautumn » Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 6:26 PM UTC

daeken wrote: post #136

evincarofautumn wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, undoubtedly. Even online, the vast majority of people don’t know or understand internet subcultures nearly as well as general issues of sexuality. It’s unrealistic to expect otherwise. I take more good-natured flak from my friends for identifying as a furry than for being bisexual. This without even associating with roleplay, pornography, fursuiting, conventions, Otherkin, or any of the “sub-subcultures” that get…

While I'd agree if this was just a random friend he was referring to as a furry, but... this is Jay Naylor we're talking about. His being a furry is very, very, very public -- in fact, he's one of the best known furries out there. I think you're taking this entirely too seriously.

Distasteful is not serious. Consider the durian fruit, how it smells, how it makes us hold our noses and laugh. No, I don’t take this seriously. I have already forgotten it.

Re: "That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

#147

Post by nickik » Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 6:37 PM UTC

woobar wrote: post #87

nickik wrote: post #55

Nice, that will help him alot. As somebody from Europe, we always see these typical American High Schools and think it can really be like this. Sure they overdo it in movies but I have read a fair amount of blogpost and reddit comments that discribe the same problem. There is grouping and groupe think too in Schools here but not in the same extrem way. It could be selection bios on my part but lets look at the diffre…

Does this mean that if kid is underachieving in Elementary school he is screwed up for life? I've heard that similar system is in Germany. And at very early stage in someone life he could be relegated to be second-class citizen.

It is a problem but I think the system is pretty well optimized to allow to jump around.

If after three years you want to do the mid-level instead of the low one you can just add a year and do it.

If you do the mid-level you can go to something called "Kurzzeit Gymnasium" witch will take you four years but you end up with the same with the top-level kids.

Even if you do a educatonaly simple job with a start from the lowest level you can do a 'Berufsmatura' combined with working. This gives you almost the same thing as the normal top-level would give you. You can go to some university (there is no word for them in english but you get a beachlor all the same). With one extra year of school you can go to all of them.

In that respect im pretty happe with the system. Socialy it works out pretty good too, you arn't some kind of idiot if you go to the lowest level.

Re: "That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

#148

Post by nerdfiles » Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 6:51 PM UTC

driverdan wrote: post #93

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #68

I'm about as asocial and celebratory of diversity as they come, and I love this essay, especially the conversational style. But I'd be careful not to take this argument too far into sophistry. In school people clan and desperately look for some identity to copy. This leads to all the terrible social behavior you see in most secondary and high school in the U.S. Somebody calling you "weird" can really be a badge of ho…

What you described is the true meaning of hipster. Someone who does something because it's uncool or weird.

I never understand why this is interesting at all.

If someone chooses to like something or do something because others dislike it or choose not to do it, the fact of their choosing is compatible with them liking it for additional reasons. And that's uninteresting too.

I just don't get why the "pro-skub-anti-skub" dynamic exists at all.

"I like to ride bicycles because others do not, and because they're convenient" is simple, and moreover, it need no social anxiety to attach itself to the shorthand, "cyclist". It seems as of late every social category that crops up exists solely to spark this type of "definition sharing" talk exchange.

Re: "That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

#149

Post by cbsmith » Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 7:07 PM UTC

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #68

I'm about as asocial and celebratory of diversity as they come, and I love this essay, especially the conversational style. But I'd be careful not to take this argument too far into sophistry. In school people clan and desperately look for some identity to copy. This leads to all the terrible social behavior you see in most secondary and high school in the U.S. Somebody calling you "weird" can really be a badge of ho…

I missed the part where that guy was advocating "I will look at my peers and do the opposite". It's more like, "don't look at your peers for any hint about your identity, because you aren't going to find it there".

Re: "That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

#150

Post by niggger » Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 7:20 PM UTC

omgsean wrote: post #133

abraxasz wrote: post #60

I like the article, a lot. But I have some reserve with the advice given. In my experience, many people would actually be glad to hangout with someone weird if he gives them some time to get used to it, and take it easy on the weirdness at first. I consider myself weird (my weirdness is that I mostly don't give a shit about conventional thinking and politically correct things. I just love a good argument, to the poin…

>I just love a good argument, to the point where I would provoke people I barely know into arguments about politics, religion, whatever. This right here is the problem with "embrace your weirdness!" posts. You're not being weird or unique, you're just ignoring social cues and deliberately making people uncomfortable. If your weirdness is that you're super into physics or anime or whatever then that's great, but if yo…

Yes, precisely. There is no merit in weirdness for weirdness' sake, and people have limits on what they will tolerate. Ignoring that doesn't make you better or more enlightened than others. People are under no obligation to accept your weirdness out of the box, just because you think they should.