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The life and death of open source companies

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141–150 of 207 posts

Re: The life and death of open source companies

#141
post #138
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's what these businesses are doing: raising labour funds for free to fund a profitable product. That's not the spirit and the purpose of Open Source. You are misguided. Here's what the company that employs me does: - develop an open source product. Open to contributions, but most of the dev is done by employees. - sell support and consulting on this product - sell pre-packaged open source extensions to this pro…

Regarding your company: At some point the incentives become misaligned, though, we've seen this happen over and over. Someone proposes and sends a PR making huge quality of life improvements, it's shot down because it would reduce consulting revenue (the rejection reason is officially not this or not even stated at all). Someone proposes and sends a PR implementing advanced functionality that the core company sells a…

sounds like a very defeatist attitude.

for good software consulting revenue is not a function of how many bugs/bad UX there are- you consult on setup, integration,maintenance,etc. If the software improves the need for this does not disappear.

If you communicate clearly what the proprietary parts of the software are, it also shouldnt be an issue. If someone wants to implement and especially maintain and test them themselves without paying, they are free to fork and do that.

Re: The life and death of open source companies

#142
post #134
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People, founders or not, are of little consequence when they are not owners, and majority at that. Which companies of that list are bootstrapped, and which have taken outside investment? I would only consider the bootstrapped ones valid entries, all others just haven't left the pretend stage yet. If you already did base your list on bootstrappedness, consider this post strong agreement: because that's what I'm trying…

> I would only consider the bootstrapped ones valid entries, all others just haven't left the pretend stage yet. I agree with this, though excluding companies burning investors money is already raising the bar higher than for closed source ones. Most companies are not bootstrapped and never leave the pretend zone. Of course not a fan. XWiki and Nextcloud [1] are definitely bootstrapped. Element is definitely not. Aut…

You are right, sqlite is public domain and I fell victim to some echoes in my mind from the early days of the open source licencing theorizing when "pubic domain is not" was an important talking point, but I guess the thing public domain was not is compyleft (or one of its mostly overlapping siblings), not open source, the superset of everything not closed.

Re: The life and death of open source companies

#143
post #138
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's what these businesses are doing: raising labour funds for free to fund a profitable product. That's not the spirit and the purpose of Open Source. You are misguided. Here's what the company that employs me does: - develop an open source product. Open to contributions, but most of the dev is done by employees. - sell support and consulting on this product - sell pre-packaged open source extensions to this pro…

Regarding your company: At some point the incentives become misaligned, though, we've seen this happen over and over. Someone proposes and sends a PR making huge quality of life improvements, it's shot down because it would reduce consulting revenue (the rejection reason is officially not this or not even stated at all). Someone proposes and sends a PR implementing advanced functionality that the core company sells a…

All these have not happened in 20 years though. Not a single contribution have been rejected because of these reasons.

Of course I would indeed expect a contribution that:

- tries to disable our licensing mechanism in our paid extensions

- tries to copy our paid extension code to our product or to a community extension

To be rejected upstream. But isn't it fair game? They can still fork the code and go start something on their own, it's one of the important features of open source. One can start a new extension repository and convince users to add it to their config, or even fork the product and provide this by default. But this is work, they'll have to maintain this, and will probably depend on us, in the end.

Most likely, we would welcome significant contributions and QoL improvements, we are only so many people for that much work to do, improvements would allow us to focus on something else. If someone outside the company is willing to maintain some feature that we currently offer for a price, it probably actually grow / improve the ecosystem and it would probably be welcomed, letting us focus on other things our customers want. People maintaining extensions or feature for our product would likely be friends. Of course you can't just dump some code and go away, that's not sustainable.

> Plus, these kinds of businesses generally only scale to mom and pop store or maybe 100 consultants.

That may be true. My company reached 60 people this year. Nextcloud is around 100. But not everyone wants to become too big. There are a lot of advantages in staying small-ish. For the CEO, a big company is also not the same fun as a 50 people company.

Re: The life and death of open source companies

#144
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding your company: At some point the incentives become misaligned, though, we've seen this happen over and over. Someone proposes and sends a PR making huge quality of life improvements, it's shot down because it would reduce consulting revenue (the rejection reason is officially not this or not even stated at all). Someone proposes and sends a PR implementing advanced functionality that the core company sells a…

sounds like a very defeatist attitude. for good software consulting revenue is not a function of how many bugs/bad UX there are- you consult on setup, integration,maintenance,etc. If the software improves the need for this does not disappear. If you communicate clearly what the proprietary parts of the software are, it also shouldnt be an issue. If someone wants to implement and especially maintain and test them them…

You mention proprietary parts, note that in our case, our paid extensions are also open source. You can clone their git repositories and modify them under the LGPL license :-)

It works because companies are actually willing to pay a few bucks for some convenience and support.

Re: The life and death of open source companies

#146
post #6

I feel like the problem is defined in the title. Open Source. Company. These are two pretty distinct concepts, and the (traditional) motives for those two things don't merge terribly well. Over and over we see the same story playing out. Companies need to make revenues to sustain the employees. Open Source makes "competing" with an existing company trivial, but with none of the invested costs. So the first mover, the…

There are lots of successful open source companies. How much did IBM buy Red Hat for? How profitable was it? There are businesses making money out of every major open source project and contributing to it.

The business model fails for reasons other than it just being open source:

1. trying to sell open source as a product rather than as a way to sell something else - services, hardware, whatever. 2. being the main developer - and therefore losing the benefit of sharing development costs. How is it a bazaar if there is only one organization developing it?

Re: The life and death of open source companies

#147
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pointless to call this anything other than source available. This license is just a no-compete license with extra steps. I see little practical difference between "you can't compete with us" and "you can't compete with us for as long as we're developing the software". Maybe we should call this a "you can have the scraps" license because the project only becomes open source when the developers stop caring about i…

> It's pointless to call this anything other than source available. I obviously strongly disagree with this. An FSL licensed project turns into full, undeniable open source after two years. > Maybe we should call this a "you can have the scraps" license because the project only becomes open source when the developers stop caring about it. Two years isn’t a lifetime. If there is value left the community has full right…

"Source available; delayed open-source release" or "source available; delayed open source" is what I would call this kind of license. It accurately describes both the present and the future legal status of the code. I wouldn't use "delayed open source" on its own because it could be misleading. Since it omits the current status, people may believe "delayed open source" software is some kind of open source already.

I think I understand why you strongly disagree with the label. Those who call your license "source available" without qualifiers are, from your perspective, committing the noncentral fallacy (https://www.greaterwrong.com/posts/yCWPkLi8wJvewPbEp/the-non...). While your license is technically "source available" according to the Wikipedia definition, it is not a typical example of a "source available" license, which usually doesn't grant additional freedoms over time and doesn't become free-as-in-freedom. I don't really see a fix. The difference between "technically category X" and "typical of category X" is an eternal universal source of bitter conflict. The best advice I can give to people embroiled in one is to care less about "technically category X" if at all possible.

Besides inventing a new label and adding a qualifier like "delayed open source", one admittedly unlikely thing licenses like FSL could try is to "reclaim" "source-available". It doesn't have to mean "a megacorp lets you peek at the code if you agree to not use it for anything interesting". The typical expectations of a source-available license could shift to less onerous and less restrictive.

Re: The life and death of open source companies

#148
post #6

I feel like the problem is defined in the title. Open Source. Company. These are two pretty distinct concepts, and the (traditional) motives for those two things don't merge terribly well. Over and over we see the same story playing out. Companies need to make revenues to sustain the employees. Open Source makes "competing" with an existing company trivial, but with none of the invested costs. So the first mover, the…

There are lots of successful open source companies. How much did IBM buy Red Hat for? How profitable was it? There are businesses making money out of every major open source project and contributing to it. The business model fails for reasons other than it just being open source: 1. trying to sell open source as a product rather than as a way to sell something else - services, hardware, whatever. 2. being the main de…

Red Hat is also highly criticized for their present day questionable reinterpretation of what the GPL allows them to do.

Re: The life and death of open source companies

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The tragedy with any form of software development is that it becomes a commodity very quickly. I can't think of anything that is less commodity like than software. Commodities are raw materials than can be easily substituted. For example Ukraine is invaded so we all switch to American grain. Try switching SQL Server for mysql or changing your Python code base to Ruby. Software is sticky.

What you are describing is lockin, which is a mechanism companies use to ensure you keep on using their software. But think about libraries. Imagine a library that handles dates and times correctly. You probably need one for whatever you are doing. Would you pay for one? No of course not because this is a solved problem and just about any language has this built into their standard library. You could build your own b…

>You could build your own but it would have no economical value. Because it is a commodity. There are countless examples like this.

Not because it's a commodity but because it is free. Free because Microsoft or Oracle or an enthusiastic Ruby developer wrote the code once and then it was done. We can then go on and build our layers on top of it without raising a purchase requisition or getting our credit card out.

The reason this can happen is because the marginal cost of software is so low. Microsoft put the work on to create their standard library on the basis that it helped them sell more SQL Servers or Windows operating systems and we all get the benefits because each additional user costs them almost nothing.

At first sight this looks like a benefit to us all but there are downsides as well. If I wanted to offer a better date and time library for .Net then I would find it difficult to compete because the alternative is free even though it isn't perfect.

If you look at hardware it is a different story. I could buy a Dell laptop and it would run exactly the same software as my Lenovo (bar drivers). This looks much more like a commodified product to me.

Re: The life and death of open source companies

#150
Why is everyone worked up about the software? The hardware is where all the time and effort is and Prusa just hasn't been doing much there. They could be using ball bearing rails or more rigid structure but instead they're just lightly iterating on their existing system of low precision plastic parts.
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