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Amazon Has an Honesty Issue

bentasker.co.uk

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Re: Amazon Has an Honesty Issue

#141

Post by sanitycheck »

desas wrote: post #91
codetrotter wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it’s about high time that Amazon disrupts the “leave it on the porch” method. Too many packages are stolen by thieves. And I mean, they’ve already started to some extend to deal with it. There are many cities I’ve been to that has Amazon delivery boxes where you can pick up your stuff. I think that when drones get powerful enough, and regulation allows it, Amazon will adopt drone delivery everywhere. You get…

"leave it on the porch" isn't even a thing in the UK, unless you specifically nominate it as your acceptable secure place. Amazon knock on the door, if you're not in then they'll come back tomorrow, and if you're not in, then they'll try the next day. If you're not in three days in a row they'll hold the package for three days, to give you time to arrange one final delivery attempt to your home, Amazon locker or pick…

Recent Amazon UK delivery experiences:

- Expected delivery on Wednesday, instead "delivered" Tuesday when I'm out by just leaving it in front of the front door, 1m from the street.

- Sitting downstairs eating dinner, my phone pings, Amazon package apparently delivered. But nobody rang the bell or knocked the door. It's just been left outside the front door again.

- Another "delivered" notification but no knock and nothing left outside the house. Check app, status is "handed to resident". Assume it's been nicked, but check with the neighbour just in case - thankfully they got it!

- My parents ordered some glassware, delivery driver dropped the package (marked Fragile) from waist height onto their doorstep, again without even attempting to knock/ring the bell. Footage captured on security cam. Obviously glassware didn't survive.

Re: Amazon Has an Honesty Issue

#142

Post by xethos »

oooyay wrote: post #114
phil21 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is chargeback fraud has become rampant since COVID, at least from friends stories in the payments and retail spaces. The word got out you can just call your bank and they will back you very few questions asked. This was abused by many, and now it's no longer a sure thing. Anything outside of outright fraud is very much a coin flip likely depending on how profitable you are to the issuing bank.

I'm sympathetic having worked in anti-fraud adjacent fields before, but this extreme pendulum swing - if that's what this indeed is - is at least inappropriate and at worst nefarious. All of my transactions go through this card; they owe me to represent me well when I'm a customer like that. When they fail to, someone needs to deliver some ire with sticking power. Same way that there's ire that can be felt by a consu…

> they owe me to represent me well when I'm a customer like that

Perhaps I'm over-tired and missing your rationale, but: Why? Why do you think they're going to do that? Because the corporation will feel bad? Because you'll go elsewhere (like a different bank that issues cards that are either Mastercard or Visa on the backend)? Because "it's just as secure as debit, but they give me a free 30-day loan every month"? Have you ever tried to get money back from an authorized transaction through your bank where goods weren't satisfactory? They don't have your back at all - why the hell do you expect Mastercard to?

Re: Amazon Has an Honesty Issue

#143

Post by crazygringo »

blibble wrote: post #133
crazygringo wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see what that has to do with anything. You still wait for the Amazon return process to conclude one way or another.

you don't have to, a prompt refund is guaranteed by UK law within 14 days regardless of amazon's shitty processes if they don't do it in time, chargeback is a perfectly reasonable

But 14 days is exactly what Amazon said it would take up to.

That's what I was saying -- the author wasn't even willing to wait that.

Re: Amazon Has an Honesty Issue

#144

Post by Gorbzel »

cafard wrote: post #134
ohdannyboy wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in a high-rise which has a mail room so maybe I'm insulated from whatever factors lead to that (porch piracy obviously, but something about Amazon specifically). I didn't realize it was that bad, only getting 83% is insane Edit: though my family in Rogers Park and the suburbs have never complained about this issue so I'm not sure it's that common.

I live in Washington, DC. Two or three times a week on the neighborhood listserv there is an email asking whether anyone got the sender's package. Some of the problem is certainly theft, but I doubt all of it is.

No doubt there's some of this given the ridiculous photos I get through the "take a picture" feature that Amazon, DoorDash, and others believe substitutes for actually validating delivery happens.

I just don't give these tech companies any benefit of the doubt for the situation. My home is on a major street next to a door that has the street number displayed very prominently. As mentioned above, FedEx and others have 100% success rate. Amazon's delivery drivers just don't care, because Bezos has created a system where they are incentivized not to care.

Re: Amazon Has an Honesty Issue

#145

Post by Gorbzel »

ohdannyboy wrote: post #125
Gorbzel wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The theft problem doesn’t vary at all in Chicago. I’m in a North (west) Side neighborhood and receive about 83% of Amazon packages, with the rest being stolen or just not delivered. Compare this with a 100% success rate for items delivered by UPS, USPS, or FedEx. I figure at some point I’ll fall below whatever metrics Amazon has internally, they’ll stop resending/refunding packages, and I’ll have to fight the same ba…

I live in a high-rise which has a mail room so maybe I'm insulated from whatever factors lead to that (porch piracy obviously, but something about Amazon specifically). I didn't realize it was that bad, only getting 83% is insane Edit: though my family in Rogers Park and the suburbs have never complained about this issue so I'm not sure it's that common.

You're right, not sure why the doubt in the edit. Different [areas/data points/anecdotes] will no doubt yield different results. The suburbs are very different than the neighborhoods. I used to live the Loop high-rise life, felt the same way you did.

Though Amazon usually is no help in the last mile delivery there. Encountered numerous stories of high rise package rooms that have just been overwhelmed by Amazon/since COVID. If anything, most improvement/success stories I've heard have been from a startup in the space, Luxer.

Re: Amazon Has an Honesty Issue

#147

Post by anuraaga »

I had a similar experience with a Chinese scam seller on eBay with a $500 GPU. tl;dr neither ebay nor PayPal would accept a claim because they had proof of receipt from DHL. Of course, a simple call to DHL could easily verify it was delivery to a different address but even providing an email from DHL to this effect as evidence didn't change the line. Eventually had to charge back and luckily in my case that did go through after about 3 months of process - the phone call from the card company in the process was nice to verify unlike everyone else it did actually get handled by a real person.

Naturally that was the end of my eBay account, PayPal unfortunately I do need from time to time.

I suppose this is just standard practice in the industry but wonder why it can be so consistently bad even with real evidence.

Re: Amazon Has an Honesty Issue

#148

Post by btasker »

anonymouskimmer wrote: post #122
inopinatus wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since I have over the decades made several insurance claims that were paid out, I feel qualified to say that is a sack of lies, and the OP has exacerbated their aggravation and annoyance by failing to contact the police and their insurance company. Instead of asserting their rights, they’ve allowed themselves to be subordinate to Amazon and Amex corporate internal processes. I struggle not to label that as vassal thi…

> they’ve allowed themselves to be subordinate to Amazon and Amex corporate internal processes No, he's told Amex that he will take legal action against them under section 75 if they do not fulfill their obligations. > Since I have over the decades made several insurance claims that were paid out By which kind of insurance and for what? It's important to note that for this transaction Amex is the primary insurance co…

Hey, OP here.

Figured I'd reply once, at the current bottom of the thread.

> Since I have over the decades made several insurance claims that were paid out

I assume that either wasn't for this situation, or you are not in the UK.

House insurance *might* cover a package that was stolen after being left on the front doorstep, but it certainly doesn't cover items that never actually arrived at the insured property.

When purchasing with a credit (rather than debit) card, the "insurance" we have is provided by Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act. For purchases over £100, the card provider (Amex in my case) effectively indemnifies the purchaser against anything that the retailer would be liable for under the Sale of Goods Act.

That's not a "provider being nice" thing either, s75 means that the contract for purchase of goods is with them.

> they’ve allowed themselves to be subordinate to Amazon and Amex corporate internal processes. I struggle not to label that as vassal thinking.

Or, perhaps, you know, understood how the law works where I am.

> When this happens, you call the police

Here, I'm definitely assuming that you're not in the UK. If you were, you'd be well aware of just how stretched and underfunded the Police currently are. They're not turning up for this.

I laid out in the post why I don't believe it's me who needs to, but as we're here lets take it one step further.

If I were to report it to the Police, Amazon may well try to use that as an argument that it's my problem to solve, not theirs. They would, almost certainly, pull "we can't do anything whilst there's an ongoing investigation".

That, by the way, isn't something I've pulled out of the air. Since publishing the post, I've been contacted by a lot of people - a lot of them have been told by Amazon that they "must" get a crime number: if they can't get the crime number, Amazon refuse to proceed. Those that did get a number... their cases are still stalled.

Reporting it to the Police not only wastes Police resources, it gives Amazon a means to try and drag this out further.

The correct procedure is:

- Raise it with Amazon - If Amazon do not/can not resolve, invoke section 75

I've no idea how the Police in your area would handle it, but here we'd be lucky if we were given a crime number.

> thought of reasonable reasons why the driver would act that way.

I completely agree, it could equally have been someone in the warehouse. That doesn't change my gut feel that it was the driver though and, really, it doesn't matter what my gut says: ultimately it's for Amazon to investigate and root the problem out.

Re: Amazon Has an Honesty Issue

#149

Post by jwestbury »

QuantumGood wrote: post #108
aaomidi wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, Amazon did have 2 day shipping to anywhere in the 48 states. That promise has now been removed. If you’re in a metro area you’ll still have it.

Yeah, have to be in the service area of an Amazon warehouse. If you are, it's great.

I don't know - I lived <20 miles from an Amazon warehouse, but saw shipping suddenly become 7-day on Prime most of the time back in 2021. I'd already tried to disentangle myself from Amazon's ecosystem, but it was definitely the nail in the coffin for my Prime subscription.

Re: Amazon Has an Honesty Issue

#150

Post by oooyay »

xethos wrote: post #142
oooyay wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sympathetic having worked in anti-fraud adjacent fields before, but this extreme pendulum swing - if that's what this indeed is - is at least inappropriate and at worst nefarious. All of my transactions go through this card; they owe me to represent me well when I'm a customer like that. When they fail to, someone needs to deliver some ire with sticking power. Same way that there's ire that can be felt by a consu…

> they owe me to represent me well when I'm a customer like that Perhaps I'm over-tired and missing your rationale, but: Why? Why do you think they're going to do that? Because the corporation will feel bad ? Because you'll go elsewhere (like a different bank that issues cards that are either Mastercard or Visa on the backend)? Because "it's just as secure as debit, but they give me a free 30-day loan every month"? H…

I use a credit card as a proxy against my bank account. That is the only reason I use it, because debit cards make it hard to appeal fraudulent transactions. If that capability is no longer there then my credit card is absolutely useless.
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