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23andMe updates their TOS to force binding arbitration

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Re: 23andMe updates their TOS to force binding arbitration

#141

Post by timthelion »

crote wrote: post #110
deckeraa wrote: post #7

The more TOS I read through, the more it seems we need a "common law" solution. (I use the term "common law" loosely here) Something like a couple of pre-defined categories for software services (e.g. info provider, social network, real-world interface) with pre-set rules (e.g. the client cannot attempt to break the social network; the owner of the social network cannot re-sell data to a third party). We have somethi…

Until your country actually implements laws like these and Hacker News starts complaining that it is "business hostile" and "stifling innovation". There are plenty of European countries which already have some laws like these. When I buy something on the internet, I have 14 days to return it if I don't like it. I am guaranteed to have a reasonable warranty. Companies cannot abuse my personal data without explicit con…

Having grown up in the US, my absolute favorite law in Czechia is the one that says the advertised price has to equal the price on the bill. In the US, you get a $20 cell phone plan and the bill is for $60 after fees. In Czechia the price is always exactly as advertised.

Re: 23andMe updates their TOS to force binding arbitration

#142

Post by giik »

logifail wrote: post #117
crote wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until your country actually implements laws like these and Hacker News starts complaining that it is "business hostile" and "stifling innovation". There are plenty of European countries which already have some laws like these. When I buy something on the internet, I have 14 days to return it if I don't like it. I am guaranteed to have a reasonable warranty. Companies cannot abuse my personal data without explicit con…

> When I buy something on the internet, I have 14 days to return it if I don't like it One (unintended?) consequence of this is that as a consumer, you cannot buy an annual digital motorway toll pass in Austria with immediate validity. The earliest your pass can start from is 18 days from the date of purchase. "Customers can withdraw from the online purchase of a digital vignette within 14 days. Taking into account a…

This is no longer true, I believe (starting Dec 1 2023). You can buy the vignette online starting immediately.

Re: 23andMe updates their TOS to force binding arbitration

#143

Post by timthelion »

timthelion wrote: post #141
crote wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until your country actually implements laws like these and Hacker News starts complaining that it is "business hostile" and "stifling innovation". There are plenty of European countries which already have some laws like these. When I buy something on the internet, I have 14 days to return it if I don't like it. I am guaranteed to have a reasonable warranty. Companies cannot abuse my personal data without explicit con…

Having grown up in the US, my absolute favorite law in Czechia is the one that says the advertised price has to equal the price on the bill. In the US, you get a $20 cell phone plan and the bill is for $60 after fees. In Czechia the price is always exactly as advertised.

Another great on is that text size has legal meaning here. The larger/darker the text the greater the legal weight. So if the contract says two contradictory things, the larger text wins out...

Re: 23andMe updates their TOS to force binding arbitration

#144

Post by pjmlp »

cjrp wrote: post #131
logifail wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When I buy something on the internet, I have 14 days to return it if I don't like it One (unintended?) consequence of this is that as a consumer, you cannot buy an annual digital motorway toll pass in Austria with immediate validity. The earliest your pass can start from is 18 days from the date of purchase. "Customers can withdraw from the online purchase of a digital vignette within 14 days. Taking into account a…

Can't the rental car companies sell you a physical vignette when you pick up the car?

I can't speak for Austria, however that is exactly what it happens in Portugal and Switzerland.

In Portugal, we use digital ones (Via Verde) and they are activated at time of purchase.

In Switzerland, physical vignettes are always available on rented cars.

Re: 23andMe updates their TOS to force binding arbitration

#145

Post by logifail »

cjrp wrote: post #131
logifail wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When I buy something on the internet, I have 14 days to return it if I don't like it One (unintended?) consequence of this is that as a consumer, you cannot buy an annual digital motorway toll pass in Austria with immediate validity. The earliest your pass can start from is 18 days from the date of purchase. "Customers can withdraw from the online purchase of a digital vignette within 14 days. Taking into account a…

Can't the rental car companies sell you a physical vignette when you pick up the car?

If you collect a vehicle in Austria it's almost certainly already got a vignette (pretty tricky for the rental company to operate an Austria-registered vehicle without one).

If you collect in your car in Germany, as I did, and drive it over the border yourself then you almost certainly won't get one (although I've ever been lucky!) so you need to purchase one (physical or digital) before (or as) you cross the border.

Re: 23andMe updates their TOS to force binding arbitration

#147

Post by logifail »

NeoTar wrote: post #136
logifail wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When I buy something on the internet, I have 14 days to return it if I don't like it One (unintended?) consequence of this is that as a consumer, you cannot buy an annual digital motorway toll pass in Austria with immediate validity. The earliest your pass can start from is 18 days from the date of purchase. "Customers can withdraw from the online purchase of a digital vignette within 14 days. Taking into account a…

Interesting though, that's not what the regulations say - DIRECTIVE 97/7/EC OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL of 20 May 1997 on the protection of consumers in respect of distance contracts https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX%3A... 3. Unless the parties have agreed otherwise, the consumer may not exercise the right of withdrawal provided for in paragraph 1 in respect of contracts: - f…

> Interesting though, that's not what the regulations say [..]

Of course they don't, but thanks for the specific link!

The "gold-plating" - or indeed misunderstanding - of EU regulations has a long and (in)glorious history.

Re: 23andMe updates their TOS to force binding arbitration

#148

Post by logifail »

giik wrote: post #142
logifail wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When I buy something on the internet, I have 14 days to return it if I don't like it One (unintended?) consequence of this is that as a consumer, you cannot buy an annual digital motorway toll pass in Austria with immediate validity. The earliest your pass can start from is 18 days from the date of purchase. "Customers can withdraw from the online purchase of a digital vignette within 14 days. Taking into account a…

This is no longer true, I believe (starting Dec 1 2023). You can buy the vignette online starting immediately.

> This is no longer true, I believe (starting Dec 1 2023). You can buy the vignette online starting immediately

If that's true then it's possible that Asfinag (the toll agency) haven't updated their website. On trying a test purchase just now to buy a two-month or annual pass it still states:

"I'm a consumer

Digital 2-month vignettes and digital annual vignettes purchased today are valid from 25.12.2023 at the earliest due to the right of withdrawal when purchasing online. All other toll products can be used immediately. (More info in the FAQ)

I represent a company

The right of withdrawal does not apply to commercial customers; purchased digital toll products are therefore valid immediately. (More info in the FAQ)"

Re: 23andMe updates their TOS to force binding arbitration

#150

Post by concerned_user »

that_guy_iain wrote: post #112
crote wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until your country actually implements laws like these and Hacker News starts complaining that it is "business hostile" and "stifling innovation". There are plenty of European countries which already have some laws like these. When I buy something on the internet, I have 14 days to return it if I don't like it. I am guaranteed to have a reasonable warranty. Companies cannot abuse my personal data without explicit con…

> There are plenty of European countries which already have some laws like these. When I buy something on the internet, I have 14 days to return it if I don't like it. I am guaranteed to have a reasonable warranty. Companies cannot abuse my personal data without explicit consent. And indeed, forced binding arbitrage is also not allowed. This is because of EU laws. A lot of the best laws we have in European countries…

You are correct, I can not find where arbitration is forbidden in the directive also it is quite the opposite.

I think in this particular case we are talking about Directive 2011/83/EU of the European Parliament and of the Council on consumer rights.

Article 6(1)

(t) where applicable, the possibility of having recourse to an out-of-court complaint and redress mechanism, to which the trader is subject, and the methods for having access to it.

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