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Charlie Munger – Feeling Like a Victim Is Perfectly Disastrous

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Re: Charlie Munger – Feeling Like a Victim Is Perfectly Disastrous

#141

Somewhat the height of survivorship bias. There are a many number of people that don't adopt a victim mentality, work hard, and try to get ahead and just don't. For every Charlie Munger there are tons of working poor that get up everyday, work hard for minimum wage, then go off to their second job. My entire childhood I watched both my parents, who both had 2 jobs, work themselves non-stop to try to provide for us. T…

It's really funny reading his "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" lecture and citing himself as an example, and offhandedly mentioning his numerous wealthy relatives.

Coming from a rich family doesn't primarily make things easy; it nearly eliminates the consequences of risk-taking and allows for failing until you stop failing.

People who aren't wealthy can't take the gambles and risks the wealthy do.

Re: Charlie Munger – Feeling Like a Victim Is Perfectly Disastrous

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, I don't make bad things my own fault. But I consider them my responsibility to fix.

> "I don't make bad things my own fault. But I consider them my responsibility to fix." ^^^ This! It's only your fault if it's actually your fault - If the blame genuinely lies with someone else, there's nothing left to do but take actions to a) fix it, and b) ensure that it never happens again. Can't rely on others to fix things, because the fact is that most people simply won't even try.

"Can't rely on others to fix things, because the fact is that most people simply won't even try."

That is a much more charitable interpretation of this idea, and when I look at my own life that's pretty much where I am at. The bar for everyone else is zero. There never seem to be any consequences for others' laziness or stupidity, and the expectation is always that I will fix it. It's not fair of me to expect them to know or care what they're doing, or to fix what they've done, and it's unseemly to complain about it.

Re: Charlie Munger – Feeling Like a Victim Is Perfectly Disastrous

#143

Isn't he the guy that tried to build windowless dorms? Anyone who thinks humans should live without natural light is not anyone I am interested in taking advice from. Ref: https://www.archpaper.com/2023/08/university-california-aban...

> While the dorm rooms themselves don’t have windows, the exterior of the building does, which lets natural light into the communal living spaces. The reasoning was too encourage people to hang out in common areas to create more of a community feeling. Whether you think that's necessary or a good idea (I went to college long ago, but there wasn't any need to have architecture diving our community), it's not the same…

Ah yes, the horrible living conditions in this dorm ade actually to encourage you to not stay at home, ignore that they make the dorm mote space efficient, that is just a happy coincidence, I'm actually making your living quarters mote unpleasant because I care about communal life.

Re: Charlie Munger – Feeling Like a Victim Is Perfectly Disastrous

#144
I do worry that this sort of attitude can be the sort of attitude that contributes to such a high rate of young male suicide. Extremely high expectations, no sympathy and no support system means exactly this - when you are a victim it's all your own fault and there's one way out. No one wants to hear you whine. Telling someone they should be resilient doesn't necessarily actually make them resilient.

Re: Charlie Munger – Feeling Like a Victim Is Perfectly Disastrous

#145

He passed away earlier today, which is I guess why this is here. He's got a point, too. To be a victim is to be helpless, and if you can choose to not see yourself that way, you can at least have some power back.

Note that not being able to acknowledge that you've been harmed while you're vulnerable is actually not recommended for certain situations. For example, it's usually very important that people who experience sexual abuse as a child acknowledge that they were innocent people who did not do anything to deserve harm and that they were harmed. Otherwise we get stuff like people who experience sexual abuse as children either believing its normal to abuse children sexually or that they were uniquely responsible as a child for their own abuse.

Re: Charlie Munger – Feeling Like a Victim Is Perfectly Disastrous

#146

This is true. It is also true that dispensing this particular advice is self-serving for people in power. In a revolution, things get worse before they get better if they get better. Revolutions come at huge negative expected value. However, appeasing powerful forces can also have hugely negative expected value. Sometimes the calculus makes sense, and when it does, you should hope that people are appropriately discou…

Well I’ve thought about this as a theoretically measurable point after learning about it through sociology texts.

The 'Outrage Factor' is like a measure of how strongly people feel about something and whether they will move into action because of it.

Imagine if you heard news about a big problem – how mad or upset it makes you and others is the 'Outrage Factor.' It's like when you find out someone did something really unfair, and it makes you really angry, especially if it feels unfair, arbitrary or imposed by an unpopular central power, etc.

While it’s certainly true that people in charge generally only say things that keep them in charge, a la the status quo always moves to reinforce its own existence, individuals in power vary a lot in their strategies for staying in power. Some may prioritize transparency and addressing concerns directly, while others may navigate communication or be blatantly manipulating to maintain ‘stability.’

The relationship between power, communication, and outrage factors is complex and influenced by various factors such as societal expectations, political climates, and individual leadership styles. A ‘revolution’ isn’t one thing — it’s all of those things combined and more.

I mean to raise the point that things are frequently much more complicated and simply discounting the advice doesn’t take into account the person saying it, their history of speaking the truth, and what room it was said in.

Obviously the modern world is filled with examples of what you are talking about, so please don’t think I’m trying to counterpoint you — that’s not my intention.

I’m trying to add to the discussion the idea of the ‘outrage factor’ as well as the various styles and politics of who is speaking, because its so very difficult to discern anyone speaking in your best interest (assuming they exist) from the sea of those who most certainly are not and that’s worth considering.

It is also interesting that psychology, sociology and other sciences all have this measurement concept for when people will get pissed off enough to actually take action — with the presumption being that the vast majority of the time, until the tipping point that is an ‘outrage factor,’ they will not. I wonder how well studied and engineered that factor is in modern societies, because I assume it’s very studied, and I also wonder what the impact of broadly deployed AI will be for leadership groups will look like give the obvious benefit of learning to manage this measurement.

Re: Charlie Munger – Feeling Like a Victim Is Perfectly Disastrous

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Predators take advantage of this quality to gaslight/scam people, FYI.

Yeah. "He wouldn't have hit me if I had just kept my mouth shut, I know how angry it makes him when I ask about money." I want to say this position is despicable, but that's not a very charitable reading. But I fail to see how 'making everything your own fault' is in any way a healthy mechanism for dealing with others. Other people DO make mistakes. Other people have loads that they ARE expected to carry. Other peopl…

I'm talking strictly in a work setting.

I don't absolve people, I just don't let myself stew over how it's their fault.

Re: Charlie Munger – Feeling Like a Victim Is Perfectly Disastrous

#148

Somewhat the height of survivorship bias. There are a many number of people that don't adopt a victim mentality, work hard, and try to get ahead and just don't. For every Charlie Munger there are tons of working poor that get up everyday, work hard for minimum wage, then go off to their second job. My entire childhood I watched both my parents, who both had 2 jobs, work themselves non-stop to try to provide for us. T…

[deleted]

Re: Charlie Munger – Feeling Like a Victim Is Perfectly Disastrous

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Predators take advantage of this quality to gaslight/scam people, FYI.

Yeah. "He wouldn't have hit me if I had just kept my mouth shut, I know how angry it makes him when I ask about money." I want to say this position is despicable, but that's not a very charitable reading. But I fail to see how 'making everything your own fault' is in any way a healthy mechanism for dealing with others. Other people DO make mistakes. Other people have loads that they ARE expected to carry. Other peopl…

The more charitable reading is that either you do have agency over how you got to where you are and how you can get out of it, in which case it is better to focus on believing what you do matters, or you don't, in which case it doesn't matter either way. That is why it's better to have a mindset of "I can change my situaion for the better" instead of "Life sucks I'm a victim".

Re: Charlie Munger – Feeling Like a Victim Is Perfectly Disastrous

#150

Somewhat the height of survivorship bias. There are a many number of people that don't adopt a victim mentality, work hard, and try to get ahead and just don't. For every Charlie Munger there are tons of working poor that get up everyday, work hard for minimum wage, then go off to their second job. My entire childhood I watched both my parents, who both had 2 jobs, work themselves non-stop to try to provide for us. T…

I think you're missing the point. The idea is more that avoiding a victim mentality typically leads to better outcomes. This isn't a surefire guarantee, but statistically, it tends to yield more favorable results.

E.g if we plot the range of outcomes for two groups of people, one group embracing a victim mentality and the other not, we'd likely see two power-law curves. However, the curve representing those without a victim mentality would generally trend higher, indicating more positive outcomes.

Applying this to your specific case, if your parents had embraced a victim mentality, there's a likelihood that they would have experienced less success, happiness, etc.

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