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PCSX2 Disables Wayland Support

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Re: PCSX2 Disables Wayland Support

#141

Post by askonomm »

abrouwers wrote: post #69
askonomm wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ready ready on what? Select hardware? I've thrown 4 regular off the shelf laptops at various DE's using Wayland and they all suck in various ways to the point that they're not even usable. Meanwhile I can throw Windows on all of them, and they work flawlessly. I'm quite tired of Linux guys saying their stuff works just fine, without mentioning how extremely limited is the hardware support to actually run any of those…

Curious, what sort of hardware issues? I don't have experience with Nvidia, but on Intel, my experience is equal on gnome (in fact, quite improved for the last couple of years - more fluid animations, less lag, etc). I've had this experience on thinkpads and most recently a framework laptop (though, vendor hardly makes a difference in this case).

Most of the issues are Linux auto-installing wrong graphic drivers, which then after a reboot results in a broken DE that doesn't work, and I don't want to spend my time manually verifying every update it tells me to install. I've had that in latest Ubuntu and Mint, to name a few. Other common issues I stumble upon is lack of audio driver support with either the audio not working at all, or working badly (no bass at all, very thin sound). Trackpad multi-touch support is bad in pretty much every distro (no decent gestures support, horrible inertia). Then of course what is now a running joke that Linux is unable to put my computer to sleep, so when I close the lid and open it again a few hours later, the battery is drained. So and so forth, and this is why I will not use Linux, because I don't find tinkering with any of this enjoyable at all, and want to get on with my work.

Re: PCSX2 Disables Wayland Support

#142

Post by accelbred »

stefan_ wrote: post #49
Laaas wrote: post #20

FWIW all the reasons seem like an aversion to complying with how Wayland works. Yes, you can't position windows absolutely, but that's because you're not supposed to do that. In any case I don't see how being able to position windows is relevant at all to PCXS2's functioning on Wayland? Just don't position windows if you can't? It's an incredibly dumb reason not to support the protocol. Xorg is mostly unmaintained AF…

That thread is a fantastic reason to never run wayland.

That thread increases my trust in the Wayland developers significantly.

Re: PCSX2 Disables Wayland Support

#144

Post by starkparker »

frio wrote: post #135
reisse wrote: post #33

Quoting @stenzek > But Wayland is just broken, and everyone would rather sit around arguing with each other instead of actually addressing the design flaws. > It's not the first time such a proposal has been put forward. Something that developers need for their applications to work properly on WL (particularly multi-window applications), and it gets vetoed. Every other OS manages this fine. But apparently we're in th…

Honestly at this stage, this stuff starts to feel like FUD. Every computer I use -- work laptop, personal desktop, personal laptop -- uses Wayland at this stage. Two are on Sway, one's on KDE. I cannot think of any show-stopping bugs I've encountered for... years. It was a lot more rough 3 years ago when I first switched over (because the laptop I had then was HiDPI, but the screen I attached it to was standard, and…

It can be simultaneously true that Wayland can be viable, and that Wayland's foundation is still broken and lacking. Same as X11. I think the frustration for devs is having to support _both_ broken platforms; at least X11's failures and shortcomings are known and mostly unchanging. Wayland keeps breaking new things downstream in the process of adding features or resolving problems.

But this:

> for a relatively normal set of desktop needs

The problem is that there's no such thing on desktop. There are _commonalities_ between many users, but even in just the web browser space there are app-side hacks and workarounds just to get about 90% of the functionality that browsers expect on other platforms.

Even in your list, most desktop users don't need an IDE or do photography work. Many don't need "games", and "games" itself is such a broad category of things, each of which presents new and exciting Wayland wrinkles and limitations to ram face-first into.

Hell, I can't run KDE on F39 without a constantly running XWayland recording bridge for desktop commonalities that use or require screen sharing (Zoom, Discord, etc.).

And most of the issues might start with the Wayland project, but they're exacerbated by Qt and GNOME problems, whether it's doing little to nothing and holding back every dependent app (Qt) or constantly coming up with new and exciting ways to break or deviate from the protocol (GNOME). Those bottlenecks aren't new, but they're magnified by Wayland's slow-moving chaos, and drawn into relief by X11 Just Working because the hacks and garbage workarounds are damn near 40 years old.

Re: PCSX2 Disables Wayland Support

#145

Post by starkparker »

gryn wrote: post #91
barkingcat wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's entirely possible that both suffer from sunk cost fallacy, and from that analysis there isn't a "better" or "more" sunk cost. It's already sunk, anything you sink further into it is a waste.

So what's your suggestion start a 3rd initiative ? It will suffer the same same problems that Wayland has. the problem is that X is flawed at the design and level and whatever you propose that fix those design issues will face the same type of push-back from the communities that don't like it because it's not the way their grandpa taught them to do things. keep in mind the wayland devs are the xorg devs that gave up…

> the wayland devs are the xorg devs

Are we sure _this_ isn't the problem?

Re: PCSX2 Disables Wayland Support

#146

Post by LtWorf »

marcodiego wrote: post #129
LtWorf wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So let me know how do you write 5 languages properly…

I write 5 languages properly. Eu escrevo 5 línguas adequadamente. J'écris cinq langues bien. Escribo 5 idiomas correctamente. Scrivo correttamente 5 lingue.

Bravo, e come fai con Øåä e questo genere di lettere?

Re: PCSX2 Disables Wayland Support

#148

Post by LordShredda »

caslon wrote: post #132
reisse wrote: post #33

Quoting @stenzek > But Wayland is just broken, and everyone would rather sit around arguing with each other instead of actually addressing the design flaws. > It's not the first time such a proposal has been put forward. Something that developers need for their applications to work properly on WL (particularly multi-window applications), and it gets vetoed. Every other OS manages this fine. But apparently we're in th…

Wayland already works, and is great for a lot of use cases; it's the default on distributions like Fedora, and has been for a while. It has nice things. For 90% of users, it's better than X in most ways that matter. Similar, but much less catastrophic, to how Android isn't great for blind users, or people who want to do low-latency audio production, Wayland is actually great for most users, despite not appealing to e…

It's the 1% that makes Wayland awful. If it's such a small part, then why not support it anyways? If it's a security issue, let kde/gnome break it in their own ways.

Re: PCSX2 Disables Wayland Support

#149

Post by wtallis »

jwells89 wrote: post #137
wtallis wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That’s not really an acceptable user experience no matter how you slice it. What you're describing is what happens in most desktop environments any time you open multiple document windows at once. Why is it so much more unacceptable for this to happen to tool palette windows? Yeah, it's obviously not good behavior, but it's prevalent enough that it's clearly a manageable problem for end users and generally preferab…

macOS will actually cascade multiple document windows opened at once so long as the dev has taken a moment to flag the windows as document windows, which still isn’t amazing but at least ensures that all opened windows are visible.

I was assuming that Wayland window managers would also cascade multiple windows. In your experience, do they not do that?
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