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The story of titanium

construction-physics.com

141–150 of 188 posts

Re: The story of titanium

#141
post #105
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the response to stress by this build method? Will it fail gracefully over a lifetime of stresses? Any single big stress-event? In terms of (rigid, diamond-frame) bicycles, this is why I’m still firmly in the steel camp. No aluminium, no carbon; just steel. It really does have an excellent combination of nice ride quality, low weight, high strength, good failure mode (I’ve broken a few frames, and they tend to…

> In terms of (rigid, diamond-frame) bicycles, this is why I’m still firmly in the steel camp. No aluminium, no carbon; just steel. It really does have an excellent combination of nice ride quality, low weight, high strength, good failure mode (I’ve broken a few frames, and they tend to just bend/sag, vs the rapid unscheduled disassembling of carbon/Al). Bicycles don't have the minimum size problem GGP is talking abo…

>Bicycles don't have the minimum size problem GGP is talking about.

They do, in a slightly different way. Bicycle frames are (broadly) stiffness-critical structures. Wider-diameter tubes have a higher specific stiffness because of the increased moment of inertia - that's why we use structures like tubes and I-beams instead of solid bars. Steel frames have skinny tubes, because they're limited by the minimum wall thickness of the tubing; increase the diameter too much and you have a tube that is very vulnerable to dents and very prone to buckling. Steel racing frames of the 1970s are remarkably flimsy, because framebuilders were pushing wall thickness to the absolute limit.

Aluminium bicycle frames are only lighter because the lower density allows you to retain an acceptable wall thickness on larger-diameter tubes. An aluminium frame with the same tube diameters as a steel frame would be considerably heavier than the steel frame, because an aluminium frame needs to be overbuilt to compensate for the lack of a defined fatigue limit.

All common steel alloys have essentially the same stiffness (~207GPa), but higher-strength steels allow us to use wider-diameter tubes with thinner wall sections; incidentally, this is why it's quite pointless to use an expensive tubeset in a lugged frame. CFRP obviously has immense specific stiffness, but it also allows frame designers to really optimise the geometry and use the material more efficiently.

Titanium is a really nice frame material, but it does have some significant issues in practical use. Titanium is very prone to embrittlement if there is any amount of contamination in the weld. Most framebuilders aren't capable of maintaining the level of cleanliness and the comprehensive gas purging required to produce really good welds in titanium, so it's very common to see titanium frames eventually crack around the welds.

To my mind the perfect material for a non-sporting frame was the superb Reynolds 953 maraging steel, but unfortunately it is no longer available. Reynolds 931 and KVA MS2 are still very good materials, particularly when fillet brazed rather than welded. CFRP obviously wins out in terms of pure performance, but I'm not sure that I'd ever trust an old and battle-scarred carbon frame on a hard descent.

Re: The story of titanium

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those must have been soft hammers. Titanium isn't magic. It's neither as hard, nor as strong, as steel. It's a lot lighter, which makes it a wonder material in certain applications that can take advantage of it's excellent strength-to-weight ratio. But if max hardness, or strength at a given size, is what you are after, without a weight constraint, steel wins.

I had a titanium Tissot watch and it scratched easier than steel watches.

Yep, I have a couple titanium watches too. I find that the scratches picked up every here and there adds to the "character" of the piece. Like it's living life with me.

Re: The story of titanium

#143
post #12

Love titanium, something so cool about it. It’s like steel with no downsides. I’ve got 5 ti bikes and a few ti watches, one of my favorite pieces though is my snow peak double wall titanium mug.

Finally a titanium stan thread! Due to skin allergies/sensitivities, the only material I can wear for watches seems to be titanium. Luckily the market for them are mostly all stylish and functional. And they're so light! It's like I'm wearing another piece of clothing on my wrist that's cold and tells me the time.

Re: The story of titanium

#144
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I could see a day when titanium laptops return. I don't get it. I was issued a metal macbook once. I had to buy a plastic case for it, because the bare metal scratched my fingernails. Why would we want a hard metal case instead of a soft plastic one?

Plastic cases flexing can damage the electronics inside hence most of the Apple stuff being metal.

It doesn't seem to cause problems for any other manufacturer. I'm using a plastic-cased Dell laptop as we speak.

If plastic cases bore any significant risk of damaging the electronics, someone would probably have noticed that by now.

Re: The story of titanium

#145

Huge fan of Titanium. If only we could find a cheap way to get the metal out of titanium dioxide. Like a Haber process-level breakthrough. Then we could start replacing steel with titanium in many applications. Think entire freight trains, cargo ships, containers, cars, trucks, tractors -- all that heavy steel replaced by titanium alloys. Enormous quantities of fuel and energy saved by lower density and higher streng…

Metalysis have made claims like this: https://metalysis.com/

Based on this tech: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FFC_Cambridge_process

Still waiting for my titanium girders though...

Re: The story of titanium

#146
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot heavier actually. In an application like a stepladder, you have to work with certain minimum dimensions for the stepladder to be practical (eg rungs and sides have to fit in the hands nicely). You also have to have certain minimum thicknesses on the parts to have sufficient resistance to local deformation (eg dropping a hammer on the rungs). That forces the parts to be significantly larger and stronger than the…

This is also why aircraft use aluminum, despite the major downsides (finite fatigue life, mainly). There’s just no way steel would work (far too heavy). Titanium is awesome but a royal pain to work with. Carbon fiber is starting to come in but it has issues to - although they’ll be overcome with time.

Steel structure won't be necessarily heavier cause density and strength are almost thrice as much as aluminium ? I think the issue with steel is that it for the required strength, the structure would be too thin that it would buckle under compression much sooner.

Re: The story of titanium

#147

Huge fan of Titanium. If only we could find a cheap way to get the metal out of titanium dioxide. Like a Haber process-level breakthrough. Then we could start replacing steel with titanium in many applications. Think entire freight trains, cargo ships, containers, cars, trucks, tractors -- all that heavy steel replaced by titanium alloys. Enormous quantities of fuel and energy saved by lower density and higher streng…

Metalysis have made claims like this: https://metalysis.com/ Based on this tech: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FFC_Cambridge_process Still waiting for my titanium girders though...

This is cool. Thanks!

In my mind, this is what real technology entrepreneurship looks like. As opposed to the latest crypto or social media thing.

Re: The story of titanium

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Decades ago, Sears sold magnesium stepladders. I've used one, and it's freakishly light, a 6-foot step ladder that you can walk around with balanced on one finger. I've always wondered what a titanium one would be like.

A lot heavier actually. In an application like a stepladder, you have to work with certain minimum dimensions for the stepladder to be practical (eg rungs and sides have to fit in the hands nicely). You also have to have certain minimum thicknesses on the parts to have sufficient resistance to local deformation (eg dropping a hammer on the rungs). That forces the parts to be significantly larger and stronger than the…

Titanium also doesn't have the resistance to abrasion that other metals have. There's stories of titanium bike frames being ruined because the rear tire was mounted incorrectly and ended up rubbing on the frame during a ride.

Re: The story of titanium

#149

Heads up… except for mine almost none of the comments here mention Grade 5 (6AL4V). This thread is a ton of people talking about things they think they understand but haven’t actually directly worked with. Just making things up or repeating things they heard once. Anyone who actually uses it will know Grade 2, 5, 12, 23 etc. I don’t mind particularly, there are some clearly educated people talking about chemistry, bu…

Maybe you can educate us then..

Re: The story of titanium

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a rigid road bike aluminum can definitely be made stronger and lighter, even though what you wrote about fatigue limit is technically true. People like steel because they feel it’s more comfortable to ride. For mountain bikes, you will find almost zero steel bikes. Here the stiffness and lightness of aluminum (and carbon fiber at the high end) is almost universally preferred. One advantage that adds to the potent…

> For a rigid road bike aluminum can definitely be made stronger and lighter, Absolutely. What I meant was that while an aluminum bike frame can be lighter than steel, it's not as much lighter than steel than you'd expect. Steel bike frames tend to be only ~15% heavier than aluminum, not 50%. Personally I bought a steel road because the difference in weight vs the aluminum alternative was small enough that I decided…

> I could use to lose a lot more weight than any bike ever could...

Get a child trailer and load it up with groceries or cement! i tried it, the results are.. Surprising

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