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Persuasion through status rather than argument

robkhenderson.com

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Re: Persuasion through status rather than argument

#141

Post by naasking »

anonymouskimmer wrote: post #137
naasking wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see why you can't compartmentalize it exactly like how I described. A leak in one of the ISS's modules wouldn't take down the whole ISS.

And then what? The train just stops in the middle of nowhere for however many days until the one chamber is fixed?

It returns obviously. Making repair or replacement of damaged sections economical is one of the engineering challenges. This by itself suggests compartmentalizing along the same lines I suggested.

It would probably be ideal if you could factory make each section and ship it on a standard truck, but with the growth of additive manufacturing, other possibilities also open up, like 3D printing the large metal container onsite.

Re: Persuasion through status rather than argument

#142

Post by LtWorf »

naasking wrote: post #135
tsimionescu wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having a vacuum chamber large enough for a train to not only fit in but actually move through at high speed before getting to the next section still requires a few hundred meters per section if not more. That in itself is insanely difficult. Connecting multiple such sections while maintaining the vacuum is more difficult still. And still, you'll need thousands of pumping stations all around the middle of nowhere, tha…

The LHC achieves a hard vacuum over 27 km, and also features superconductors along its length, so clearly that combo is doable over an extended length. I'm not trying to trivialize the engineering challenges here, but I've seen that people have tendency to immediately jump from "it's hard" to "it's impossible or infeasible", even though no one's even made an attempt. Some clever engineering could await discovery that…

Is it large enough for a train?

Re: Persuasion through status rather than argument

#143

Post by anonymouskimmer »

naasking wrote: post #141
anonymouskimmer wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And then what? The train just stops in the middle of nowhere for however many days until the one chamber is fixed?

It returns obviously. Making repair or replacement of damaged sections economical is one of the engineering challenges. This by itself suggests compartmentalizing along the same lines I suggested. It would probably be ideal if you could factory make each section and ship it on a standard truck, but with the growth of additive manufacturing, other possibilities also open up, like 3D printing the large metal container…

I think you'd have to print it onsite, otherwise you have no gain in the loop being underground as you'd have to dig basically the entire ground up to swap sections.

Re: Persuasion through status rather than argument

#144

Post by tsimionescu »

naasking wrote: post #135
tsimionescu wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having a vacuum chamber large enough for a train to not only fit in but actually move through at high speed before getting to the next section still requires a few hundred meters per section if not more. That in itself is insanely difficult. Connecting multiple such sections while maintaining the vacuum is more difficult still. And still, you'll need thousands of pumping stations all around the middle of nowhere, tha…

The LHC achieves a hard vacuum over 27 km, and also features superconductors along its length, so clearly that combo is doable over an extended length. I'm not trying to trivialize the engineering challenges here, but I've seen that people have tendency to immediately jump from "it's hard" to "it's impossible or infeasible", even though no one's even made an attempt. Some clever engineering could await discovery that…

The LHC tube is 27km long but ~6cm in diameter. It is true that they are pumping down a more impressive vacuum volume though, but not in the tube, but around each of the many, many superconducting magnets. That's about 9000m³ (compared to the ~150m³ of the actual tube).

Still, the LHC is hardly maintaining that vacuum continuously all year round. And it is one of the most sophisticated engineering and scientific projects attempted in history. Hardly a good idea for a train project.

Re: Persuasion through status rather than argument

#145

Post by fragmede »

KRAKRISMOTT wrote: post #18
LtWorf wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think musk knew very well. It's the investors that fell for it.

There's nothing physically impossible about the Hyperloop (basically a maglev in vacuum tube, nothing wrong with the tech, just not particularly economical). Maglevs have been deployed successfully in some parts of Asia, they are just dreadfully expensive and nimbys have fears about radiation but they are hardly new technology.

We didn't miss the part where

> Musk admitted Hyperloop was about getting legislators to cancel plans for high-speed rail in California. He had no plans to build it

https://twitter.com/alexdemling/status/1557221632837505025

https://time.com/6203815/elon-musk-flaws-billionaire-visions...

Re: Persuasion through status rather than argument

#146

Post by 1vuio0pswjnm7 »

"Results from a recent paper titled `Keeping Your Mouth Shut: Spiraling Self-Censorship in the United States' by the political scientists James L. Gibson and Joseph L. Sutherland is consistent with the findings from Cato/Yougov."

Here is that paper. No SSRN Javascript required.

https://academic.oup.com/psq/advance-article-pdf/doi/10.1093...

Re: Persuasion through status rather than argument

#147

Post by anonymouskimmer »

anonymouskimmer wrote: post #138
mjburgess wrote: post #29

The only issue here is calling the 'tribal mode' peripheral -- no, no, it's the default. The human species is first divided into tribes, and much latterly, individuals. ie., Individual human psychology is governed principally by tribal logic -- though 'thinking for oneself' in the broadest sense is always available, it is rarely exercised outside of certain kinds non-social problem environments. Intellectuals are of…

> The human species is first divided into tribes, and much latterly, individuals. ie., Individual human psychology is governed principally by tribal logic -- though 'thinking for oneself' in the broadest sense is always available, it is rarely exercised outside of certain kinds non-social problem environments. No, this priority varies between individuals. And you left out the mating pair-bond from your analysis. This…

Someone downvoted me so apparently doesn't like the idea that not all people are tribal animals, or doesn't like what I linked to.

Just look at a diversity of television and movies and you will see a variety of types of people presented. You probably won't be compellingly interested in those varieties that differ too much from your own, but that certainly doesn't mean that they don't exist.

What's primarily tribal about the psychology of the characters in The Piano?

Re: Persuasion through status rather than argument

#148

Post by AmpsterMan »

To whatever extent this article is true suggests that the way to convince people of certain positions is to hook them via peripheral route, but then keep them there via the central route.

If the position is such that any central route reasoning would lead to a rejection of the position, than the next best option is to overwhelm the critical faculties with peripheral route persuasion

Re: Persuasion through status rather than argument

#149

Post by Animats »

> In the 1950s, at the height of McCarthyism, 13.4 percent of Americans reported that “felt less free to speak their mind than they used to.” In 1987, the figure had reached 20 percent. By 2019, 40 percent of Americans reported that they did not feel free to speak their minds. This isn’t a partisan issue, either. Gibson and Sutherland report that, “The percentage of Democrats who are worried about speaking their mind is just about identical to the percentage of Republicans who self-censor: 39 and 40 percent, respectively.”

That's a scary number. And it's probably not wrong.

Re: Persuasion through status rather than argument

#150

Post by pavel_lishin »

Animats wrote: post #149

> In the 1950s, at the height of McCarthyism, 13.4 percent of Americans reported that “felt less free to speak their mind than they used to.” In 1987, the figure had reached 20 percent. By 2019, 40 percent of Americans reported that they did not feel free to speak their minds. This isn’t a partisan issue, either. Gibson and Sutherland report that, “The percentage of Democrats who are worried about speaking their mind…

I certainly keep my mouth shut about certain things, lest the people whose beliefs I find vile and unconscionable (and who view mine the same way) ostracize me, or worse, my child in the community.

Far better to gently feel people out before revealing my beliefs entirely.

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