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The 'Georgists' Are Out and they want to tax your land

nytimes.com

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Re: The 'Georgists' Are Out and they want to tax your land

#141

Post by AnimalMuppet »

Obscurity4340 wrote: post #138
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, if the price of land decreases, it only discourages people from selling if they think that the price will come back some time in the future. A permanent tax change won't make people think that. More: If the tax rate has gone up enough that the price has gone down, then if I hold it, I'm also having to pay the higher taxes year after year. That's going to encourage selling, not discourage it. I don't like Georgism…

> other reasons What might those be? Can you expand on why you don't "like" it...

1. The whole thing has a "one weird trick to fix your economy" vibe to it. On that ground alone, it feels like snake oil. (If you want to argue that "vibe" is not an intellectually rigorous criticism, I will admit the truth of that point.)

2. Why land, specifically? Why land only? It's not the 1800s anymore, and land is not either the primary asset or the primary source of wealth. Why single it out as the thing to tax? It feels like a theory stuck in the past. It needs to explain why, in 2023, land is the one thing that should be taxed. I've seen handwaving, but nothing that feels all that solid. (The one argument that has at least some merit is that no more land can be created, unlike everything else. True, but so what? There's a maximum number of bitcoin, but Georgism doesn't say to tax them. Why is land the one magic thing to get taxed?)

3. It is easy for the rich to have a smaller proportion of their assets in land than it is for the middle class. (Unless they rent - and then they wind up getting charged for the tax without having the benefits of owning the land.) LVT - if it's the only tax - means that the rich can easily wind up paying little or no tax. I'm not of the "confiscate all the rich's assets" crowd, but letting them pay almost nothing doesn't sit right with me, either.

Re: The 'Georgists' Are Out and they want to tax your land

#142

Post by Obscurity4340 »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #141
Obscurity4340 wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> other reasons What might those be? Can you expand on why you don't "like" it...

1. The whole thing has a "one weird trick to fix your economy" vibe to it. On that ground alone, it feels like snake oil. (If you want to argue that "vibe" is not an intellectually rigorous criticism, I will admit the truth of that point.) 2. Why land, specifically? Why land only ? It's not the 1800s anymore, and land is not either the primary asset or the primary source of wealth. Why single it out as the thing to t…

Re:2: Why should LABOUR in lieu of land be taxed? What's more Adam-and-Evey than making everyone suffer under the sweat of their brows for the rest of the days or tax the fewer far better resourced landowners and everyone lives happily ever after

Re: The 'Georgists' Are Out and they want to tax your land

#143

Post by AnimalMuppet »

Obscurity4340 wrote: post #142
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. The whole thing has a "one weird trick to fix your economy" vibe to it. On that ground alone, it feels like snake oil. (If you want to argue that "vibe" is not an intellectually rigorous criticism, I will admit the truth of that point.) 2. Why land, specifically? Why land only ? It's not the 1800s anymore, and land is not either the primary asset or the primary source of wealth. Why single it out as the thing to t…

Re:2: Why should LABOUR in lieu of land be taxed? What's more Adam-and-Evey than making everyone suffer under the sweat of their brows for the rest of the days or tax the fewer far better resourced landowners and everyone lives happily ever after

How about we don't pick one thing? How about we pick income, including capital gains, and land, and buildings, and IP? And maybe set the rates low enough that nobody gets crushed?

Re: The 'Georgists' Are Out and they want to tax your land

#144

Post by Obscurity4340 »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #143
Obscurity4340 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Re:2: Why should LABOUR in lieu of land be taxed? What's more Adam-and-Evey than making everyone suffer under the sweat of their brows for the rest of the days or tax the fewer far better resourced landowners and everyone lives happily ever after

How about we don't pick one thing? How about we pick income, including capital gains, and land, and buildings, and IP? And maybe set the rates low enough that nobody gets crushed?

Some would argue you're describing the status quo, which is crushing young people and the disadvantaged. How 'bout making capital gains equivalent to laboearned income?

Re: The 'Georgists' Are Out and they want to tax your land

#145

Post by jacknews »

strangesmells06 wrote: post #22

I personally think people's first property should be tax-free. their actual home. people own more than that The property should be taxed also corporation-owned properties should be taxed edit: i mean annual property taxes

What about people who can't afford to buy? Their taxes subsidize those who can.

Ultimately, land itself is like air and water, it is a birth-right.

Re: The 'Georgists' Are Out and they want to tax your land

#146

Post by anonymouskimmer »

Obscurity4340 wrote: post #144
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about we don't pick one thing? How about we pick income, including capital gains, and land, and buildings, and IP? And maybe set the rates low enough that nobody gets crushed?

Some would argue you're describing the status quo, which is crushing young people and the disadvantaged. How 'bout making capital gains equivalent to laboearned income?

Except this tax everything scheme did not crush young people and the disadvantaged, at least not so much, in prior decades. The tax regime has changed, along with other parts of the economy. Maybe it's worth revisiting earlier years and analyzing all of their parameters to see what has changed.

Re: The 'Georgists' Are Out and they want to tax your land

#147

Post by detourdog »

Obscurity4340 wrote: post #137
detourdog wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We specifically had to sell the third generation farm due to 10x increase in taxes one year. We were under utilizing it and now its a hospital among other things.

So...happy ending ?

I have no right to complain but most people like to maintain the status quo. I was fortunate but my kids will not know what farm like was like.

Re: The 'Georgists' Are Out and they want to tax your land

#148

Post by Obscurity4340 »

detourdog wrote: post #147
Obscurity4340 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So...happy ending ?

I have no right to complain but most people like to maintain the status quo. I was fortunate but my kids will not know what farm like was like.

Farms are nothing but death and misery. You're lucky you got to be on the owner side of that. Lots of kids work their entire lives on other peoples farms, often for $0 or any upside, and end up having nothing. I think the right call was made.

Re: The 'Georgists' Are Out and they want to tax your land

#149

Post by iteratethis »

jacknews wrote: post #145
strangesmells06 wrote: post #22

I personally think people's first property should be tax-free. their actual home. people own more than that The property should be taxed also corporation-owned properties should be taxed edit: i mean annual property taxes

What about people who can't afford to buy? Their taxes subsidize those who can. Ultimately, land itself is like air and water, it is a birth-right.

People that can't afford things tend to pay little tax, if any. They are net receivers. And how are people that bought something with their own money subsidized?

Owning land is not a birth right.

Re: The 'Georgists' Are Out and they want to tax your land

#150

Post by iteratethis »

spaceman_2020 wrote: post #45
strangesmells06 wrote: post #22

I personally think people's first property should be tax-free. their actual home. people own more than that The property should be taxed also corporation-owned properties should be taxed edit: i mean annual property taxes

Capitalist societies across the world are in complete demographic collapse because young people can’t afford homes to raise families, and yet progressive land taxation remains an unpopular idea. Absurd.

The demographic collapse has little to do with housing. Even people with zero financial obstacles want 1-2 children at best.
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