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Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

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141–150 of 167 posts

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lesson in that first few sentences. Of course eating out is risky as it's a black box where you get food for putting money in it. You're not guaranteed quality or safety in the more subtle sense

So far, to my knowledge, I've gotten food poisoning from something I cooked for myself exactly once, and that's because my 12 year old dumbass brain thought microwaving a steak for a few minutes was a valid was a valid way to cook it Almost every time I've actually gotten sick from food has been eating out. I've also seen some close calls like when my fiancee was served 'rare' pork... Which isn't a culinary thing.

I'm self-administering (unwittingly) mild food poisoning pretty regularly because I can't throw away food, particularly food that I spent precious time on cooking it myself.

Like a big pot of soup, some fried meat and whatever side dish like cooked cabbage. The idea is to spend the unpleasant cooking time once, put it all in the fridge then for a few days at least the whole effort is just to retrieve servings and heat them before eating.

Most of the times I finish what I cooked before starting to spoil but even spoiling isn't very sudden. Like I ate 5 days old soup yesterday and tasted a little funny but it was all good, no side effects. There's still a bowl left at the bottom of the pot today and by the time I'm hungry it's too late to start thinking and waiting for alternatives so what the heck. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger I guess. Therefore it happens sometimes that I wakeup at 2 AM with an acute feeling that a bowel evacuation is imminent if you know what I mean :)

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I throw out food when it is bad, not based on some arbitrary timer.

I do too and I have an upset stomach sometimes.. I note and try to adjust, since I'm not going to throw out virtually everything I buy to be 100% safe at the cost of absurd food waste. The point of health inspectors, etc, is that we can't take all the same kind of risks in a high volume kitchen. I don't understand why the idea that an average person gives themselves food poisoning often is rocket science here.

You may have a illness or disease if you frequently get stomach aches. That isn't typical, talk to your doctor.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. It is surprisingly hard to give yourself food poisoning if you cook for yourself. On the other hand, like you, essentially every food poisoning I've had was dining out. Suburbs with lax food safety enforcement, city with some of the most rigorous inspection regimes in the country, wherever. Once my wife & I both got food poisoning ordering completely different food, as though the entire food station was cont…

It's extremely common to get food poisoning at home, and for many people/cases it is indistinguishable from the flu. Who separates meats in their fridge and on their cutting boards, dates the opening times of items, etc? Similarly, a home dishwasher doesn't actually sterilize anything, which is why its safer AFA chemicals. It's just providing the hope that small doses of something you've already interacted with won't…

>It's extremely common to get food poisoning at home.

What does that mean to you? That it will happen to an individual multiple times a year? That it will occur in a large city a few times a year?

The risk is hugely overblown in my opinion.

Home dishes don't need to be sterile, they just need food and grease removed.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So far, to my knowledge, I've gotten food poisoning from something I cooked for myself exactly once, and that's because my 12 year old dumbass brain thought microwaving a steak for a few minutes was a valid was a valid way to cook it Almost every time I've actually gotten sick from food has been eating out. I've also seen some close calls like when my fiancee was served 'rare' pork... Which isn't a culinary thing.

I'm self-administering (unwittingly) mild food poisoning pretty regularly because I can't throw away food, particularly food that I spent precious time on cooking it myself. Like a big pot of soup, some fried meat and whatever side dish like cooked cabbage. The idea is to spend the unpleasant cooking time once, put it all in the fridge then for a few days at least the whole effort is just to retrieve servings and hea…

The trick is to once every couple of days when it's starting to get to that point where it'll go bad soon, take it out, and re-cook it somehow to kill any bacteria. This could be tossing soup back on the stove, or microwaving veggies steaming hot.

Also, it helps a lot to have strict sanitary standards for yourself, like always using a clean, fresh utensil to scoop out your servings. Or if you use the same one, start from the most-recently cooked food and end at the oldest, so you're not potentially introducing bacteria or mold from older stuff into newer stuff.

I eat leftovers sometimes up to maybe 10 days at max, but I am pretty good at avoiding any issues from it.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#145
Anyone noticed how they wash and rinse behind bars? It can be terrifying. The ones that don't use industrial dishwashers (bad as we're learning here) also just do a rapid sub 1 second dip into one sink with detergent chemicals, a sub 1 second dip onto a second water sink, and then upside down it goes on the shelf, ready to be reused.

How naive was I to think it's both cleaning well and not leaving dangerous chemicals as residue to mix onto a water or beer.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. It is surprisingly hard to give yourself food poisoning if you cook for yourself. On the other hand, like you, essentially every food poisoning I've had was dining out. Suburbs with lax food safety enforcement, city with some of the most rigorous inspection regimes in the country, wherever. Once my wife & I both got food poisoning ordering completely different food, as though the entire food station was cont…

> It is surprisingly hard to give yourself food poisoning if you cook for yourself. It's not hard at all if you're cooking chicken. All it can take is reusing the cutting board without washing. If you're careful about it, it's hard. But plenty of people aren't careful. They think the risk is "overblown", they assume salmonella in chicken is as rare as salmonella in eggs. This makes it pretty easy. And then they think…

It actually is “stomach flu”, because that's the common name for gastroenteritis, even though it's not related to influenza.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is surprisingly hard to give yourself food poisoning if you cook for yourself. It's not hard at all if you're cooking chicken. All it can take is reusing the cutting board without washing. If you're careful about it, it's hard. But plenty of people aren't careful. They think the risk is "overblown", they assume salmonella in chicken is as rare as salmonella in eggs. This makes it pretty easy. And then they think…

At that point why not just lick raw chicken? I mean if you stick your finger in an electric socket you'll get hurt too. Just suggesting a basic level of hygiene.

I mean, I'm not disagreeing.

Just saying that it's not hard to do. That's all.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#148
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to disagree, a person should be (and, at least to an extent is) guaranteed safety when dining out. Food safety regulations serve this purpose. They are probably not sufficient, admittedly, and ought to be updated to address such concerns as this paper raises, but every so often it impresses me that we have found a way for total strangers to create a thing that you voluntarily ingest without a second thought. W…

Your statement is different in that it contains a "should": The reason food safety regulations exist and are much stricter than what you need to apply at home is partly because it affects people at scale, and partly because individuals have no control of it. So exactly because dining out can be unsafe, food safety should be strictly regulated ("guaranteed"). It seems that the disagreement is mostly how many expectati…

Some people don’t understand that there are the letter and spirit of the law, and then there are the application and enforcement, and there is some flux in the middle of it all. People are imperfect, and people are the ones washing dishes, preparing food, and enforcing the health code. Things slip through the cracks at a nonzero rate.

If that bothers you, you just have to remember the old adage: “if you want something done right, diy.”

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do too and I have an upset stomach sometimes.. I note and try to adjust, since I'm not going to throw out virtually everything I buy to be 100% safe at the cost of absurd food waste. The point of health inspectors, etc, is that we can't take all the same kind of risks in a high volume kitchen. I don't understand why the idea that an average person gives themselves food poisoning often is rocket science here.

You may have a illness or disease if you frequently get stomach aches. That isn't typical, talk to your doctor.

Thanks, but that isn't really normalized to anything.. The average American should get food poisoning every 7 years (48 million a year) and I have an upset stomach I would associate with at least one food risk in the 12 hours prior more like yearly, but I rarely get flu level sick, even from a flu, certainly not in an average 7 year period.

I think most people simply haven't looked into food safety material enough to integrate a probability that they had a food related factor when they feel sick and therefore conclude that they have no food risks in their daily habits that would equate to a small risk of a major health incident in a centralized kitchen, etc.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#150

Off topic: this is my first time hearing of rinse aids. It really feels odd (to me) that such a thing would exist. I thought we all just used water and a napkin. I also have no experience with dishwashers, so how different is dishwater detergent from regular dishwashing soap?

Rinse aid is a detergent that helps remove the residue other detergents or minerals in the water might leave on dishes after washing. It's not needed for hand washing, where mechanical scrubbing & a rinse with clean water performs the same task.

Dishwasher detergent is a surfactant, but is not a soap. All soaps are detergents, not all detergents are soaps. Soaps form insoluble precipitates when used with "hard" water, dishwasher detergents don't do that. They're not good to touch directly (rather harsh on the skin, they'll remove all the oil) but since they don't form those precipitates they work in a wider variety of conditions than soaps do. They also tend to include some other components, like bleach. That helps them clean better without needing mechanical scrubbing, which dishwashers don't do.

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