Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification • Hacker News Board

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#141

Post by theshrike79 » Tue, Oct 10, 2023, 9:35 PM UTC

londons_explore wrote: post #85

gmane wrote: post #5

Anyone who has followed hydrogen as a fuel for a while sees pretty easily that its a solution in search of a problem. It really doesn't make sense to use renewables to make hydrogen fuel to then burn: batteries are better for storage of energy in most cases (I will grant that there are edge cases where a liquid/gas fuel is a better technical solution than batteries, but I think that options like ethanol are probably…

You know what does make it make sense? If you can take natural gas out of the ground, split it into hydrogen and CO2 (releasing heat, which can be used to generate electricity), and inject the CO2 back underground to help release more oil and gas. At this point, you have hydrogen gas. Sure, you could burn that hydrogen to make more electricity, but it works out financially better if you can directly use it. The benef…

You hit the nail on the head, this is why oil companies are pro-hydrogen.

They can greenwash their natural gas into "green" hydrogen and get even more profits. H2 prices are at least 5-10x compared to natural gas.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#142

Post by wilg » Tue, Oct 10, 2023, 9:35 PM UTC

cpymchn wrote: post #98

Toyota was betting big on hydrogen. Were they being engineer-minded or where they being lobbied? I would like to think they were betting on Beta -- the superior technology -- in the Beta v VHS battle of our time. What am I missing here? Toyota's engineers have a great track record and the company isn't easily swayed by fads or Wall Street.

Beta was the inferior technology, like hydrogen.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#143

Post by theshrike79 » Tue, Oct 10, 2023, 9:36 PM UTC

super256 wrote: post #19

gmane wrote: post #5

Anyone who has followed hydrogen as a fuel for a while sees pretty easily that its a solution in search of a problem. It really doesn't make sense to use renewables to make hydrogen fuel to then burn: batteries are better for storage of energy in most cases (I will grant that there are edge cases where a liquid/gas fuel is a better technical solution than batteries, but I think that options like ethanol are probably…

What about using hydrogen in lorries/trucks? I see that argument thrown around often in hydrogen vs battery discussions.

For long-haul trucks it's a viable option. I think there's a large-ish test fleet in Switzerland.

But for personal vehicles it's 100% dead unless we get some huge advances in the technology.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#144

Post by t3rabytes » Tue, Oct 10, 2023, 9:36 PM UTC

mem0r1 wrote: post #114

The argumentation is flawed. 1. Just imagine the required charging infrastructure if all vehicles were suddenly battery powered. Charging electric vehicles requires quite some power. Can the power grid installations sustain that (power lines, Transformer stations...) ? What resources (financial and physical (e.g. Cooper)) are required in order to adapt the infrastructure ? Just an example: A supercharger station whic…

Re 1: The US built 1,000,000 new homes last year without anyone saying "how we the country cope with this increase in need for wood/etc". Most new homes will have multiple 50A circuits to power an electric range and/or HVAC system. Most level 2 electric car chargers max at 50-75A, and can be configured to only charge during times of low grid power demand. Every electric car in existence won't be DC fast charging all the time. In fact, I'd wager for most EV owners in the US today, DC fast charging is a very very low percent of their total charge allocation (between DC fast and AC level 2).

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#145

Post by ZeroGravitas » Tue, Oct 10, 2023, 9:37 PM UTC

robertlagrant wrote: post #123

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #117

One irony is that hydrogen cars are actually a better option than ICE. They're just both blown away by BEVs because batteries and supporting tech has progressed so dramatically.

A better option in what circumstance?

In the circumstance that we wanted to deal with climate change, local air pollution and inefficiency of ICE, but didn't have modern battery tech available.

If we somehow magically knew that we'd hit a physics limit with battery tech over a decade ago, hydrogen for personal vehicles would be a good range extender option and worth rolling out the infrastructure to support.

And bear in mind, basically every FCEV containts a small battery BEV at its heart.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#146

Post by ninkendo » Tue, Oct 10, 2023, 9:38 PM UTC

dangus wrote: post #109

baq wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Batteries are heavy, expensive and we don’t have infrastructure to charge them at the required scale. I don’t believe hydrogen is the answer but methane cells could be… liquid energy storage is just so much more practical compared to alternatives.

“We don’t have the infrastructure” is a temporary problem. The same could have been said about gas stations and the electrical grid capacity needed for widespread air conditioning. Weight isn’t such a crazy thing either. The Tesla Model Y long range weighs 900 pounds more than a Honda CRV. It’s a lot, but the most popular car in America is the Ford F-150 which weighs about the same as a Model Y at the low end. The we…

> The weight efficiency can only improve from here

I don’t think this is a given. I can imagine plenty of future battery tech that is much more physically dense, and also more energy-dense, but with an overall mass that’s heavier than what we have now. Consumers really want more range, and they don’t really care about their car’s weight so long as it isn’t prohibitive. (They will definitely care collectively as the roads deteriorate faster and they have to pay more in tax dollars and wasted time spent in construction to repair them, but that will end up being a tragedy of the commons.)

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#147

Post by theshrike79 » Tue, Oct 10, 2023, 9:38 PM UTC

0cf8612b2e1e wrote: post #56

gmane wrote: post #5

Anyone who has followed hydrogen as a fuel for a while sees pretty easily that its a solution in search of a problem. It really doesn't make sense to use renewables to make hydrogen fuel to then burn: batteries are better for storage of energy in most cases (I will grant that there are edge cases where a liquid/gas fuel is a better technical solution than batteries, but I think that options like ethanol are probably…

I still believe there is potential for hydrogen/ammonia/methane fuel to be a seasonal storage mechanism. Battery technology does not seem capable of offering grid scale storage for the entirety of Winter. While the solar->fuel->electricity conversion takes huge efficiency hits, for “free” renewable energy, it can still pencil out as economical. Plus, it is feasible today without unobtanium (but not currently cost com…

Hydrogen is _really_ hard to store. It leaks from every container, transport and storage losses are just an accepted fact.

It might be a good option when we have so much renewables that we can't find any more batteries to shove it in. Then we can use it to store compressed hydrogen, that can be released as electricity from large-scale fuel cells during calm cloudy days.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#148

Post by micromacrofoot » Tue, Oct 10, 2023, 9:38 PM UTC

henearkr wrote: post #23

micromacrofoot wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

unfortunately no one's going to be converting existing cars to anything other than scrap metal no matter which technology proves to be the most promising

Well I agree with your other comment, but about this one, retrofitting (ICE->EV) is a thing. Even if very niche for now.

With the way cars are built today it can be an endeavor to change a lightbulb, let alone the entire propulsion system.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#149

Post by duskwuff » Tue, Oct 10, 2023, 9:38 PM UTC

parker_mountain wrote: post #63

otabdeveloper4 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Putting two tons of highly toxic and flammable lithium into a car-shaped object just to commute one person a few dozen miles is quite literally insane from all practical points of view. Our ancestors will never believe that we were nuts enough to not only allow this, but actually legally manndate it. They will think it's an urban legend and no ancient people could have been so short-sighted and egotistical.

Fun fact: per mile driven, there are about 1/10th to 1/5th as many EV fires, as there are gas car fires. Putting ten gallons of highly toxic and flammable fuel into a car-shaped object just to commute one person a few dozen miles is quite literally insane from all practical points of view. Electric tech is marginally less crazy, and also a step forward.

> Putting ten gallons of highly toxic and flammable fuel into a car-shaped object just to commute one person a few dozen miles is quite literally insane from all practical points of view.

And there's another 10-20 gallons of various oils in the engine and transmission. While they aren't nearly as volatile as the gasoline, they're still quite flammable. Really, it's a wonder these things were ever allowed. :)

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#150

Post by Reason077 » Tue, Oct 10, 2023, 9:39 PM UTC

reducesuffering wrote: post #16

gmane wrote: post #5

Anyone who has followed hydrogen as a fuel for a while sees pretty easily that its a solution in search of a problem. It really doesn't make sense to use renewables to make hydrogen fuel to then burn: batteries are better for storage of energy in most cases (I will grant that there are edge cases where a liquid/gas fuel is a better technical solution than batteries, but I think that options like ethanol are probably…

Hydrogen was pushed by the Japanese government because BEV's aren't as ideally suited to the country's economy and resources. It's not a coincidence the only two companies making hydrogen cars were both the largest Japanese automakers, Toyota and Honda. And both of those models are economic failures atypical of their usual engineering prowess. Toyota Mirai sales have been flatlined at low ~1-2k since they started, fo…

> "BEV's aren't as ideally suited to the country's economy and resources."

BEVs are better suited to Japan's economy and resources than any other fuel, the vast majority of which is imported (including natural gas).

It's just that it's taken Japan's government a long time to realise this. But it seems like they're finally coming around!