"Lighten up" • Hacker News Board

Re: "Lighten up"

#141

Post by damoncali » Wed, Mar 21, 2012, 9:56 PM UTC

klausa wrote: post #87

You see, I have problem with posts like this. First I'm like - "Woah, I can't imagine someone would be so insensitive to make joke like this!" and get all fed up and upset. But then... then I freeze, because next example is something that I can imagine myself saying. "Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!" I... I'm at loss of words. I was trained during my teenage years, that it's coo…

I have problem with how posts like this make me feel.

That's because there is nothing wrong with you, and yet everyone around you is telling you you're a problem. Kinda like the OP feels at work.

Re: "Lighten up"

#142

Post by danielharan » Wed, Mar 21, 2012, 9:56 PM UTC

daenz wrote: post #72

alanh wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? Your sole contribution here is an earnest restatement of the dismissive line decried over and over in the linked piece? For shame. Edit in reply : Exactly how are these not all the same: “Hang in there,” “lighten up,” “change your perspective”?

They have different connotations: "Hang in there" - common phrase of support. Have you seriously never heard of this? "lighten up" - dismissive, which I didn't say. "change your perspective" - Helpful advice for many situations people have to endure unjustly. If you've never been in a situation like that, be glad. If you are, and you cannot change it easily, changing your perspective works. You're trying way too hard…

Ad hominem.

Re: "Lighten up"

#143

Post by Tichy » Wed, Mar 21, 2012, 9:56 PM UTC

klausa wrote: post #87

You see, I have problem with posts like this. First I'm like - "Woah, I can't imagine someone would be so insensitive to make joke like this!" and get all fed up and upset. But then... then I freeze, because next example is something that I can imagine myself saying. "Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!" I... I'm at loss of words. I was trained during my teenage years, that it's coo…

As a supplement to those posts, I would like a set of instructions about how to talk to women properly (and women with low cut dresses especially). I mean it seems possible that the "I know where I'm sitting" guy was simply crap at giving compliments, rather than a sexist jerk. Attraction between men and women exists, and it is even vital for the survival of the human race for the time being. So it has to be dealt with somehow.

Re: "Lighten up"

#144

Post by daenz » Wed, Mar 21, 2012, 9:56 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #113

daenz wrote: post #22

Hang in there. The norms are always transitioning, so someone is always getting "the shaft" (hopefully that won't come across as sexist :) And unfortunately, when you can't change everyone's "natural" behavior, the next healthiest choice is to grow thicker skin. EDIT>> I'm not saying that it's ok she's treated like this, but you can't change everyones behavior. It takes lifetimes. In the meantime, if you want to have…

Assume for a moment that you're right. Assume, even, that the original poster agrees with you. Now, re-read the post. You'll see that the poster doesn't have a thin skin; they're just sharing something that happens all the time. The blatant stuff is, perhaps, easier to deal with because you can let off steam and have a rant. It's the gradual drip drip drip of every day comments - comments that your colleagues don't g…

I don't think she has thin skin, or is weak, or oversensitive. And believe me, I know what it's like to have an above-average wearing of my patience daily from people. What has helped me is understanding the psychology of why people behave the way that rubs negatively, and framing it in that every time I deal with it. That's the change of perspective, that's growing a thicker skin.

At the same time, the realist side of me knows that people take a long time to change, and in the meantime, I'm going to be the one that has to deal with it.

Re: "Lighten up"

#145

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Mar 21, 2012, 9:57 PM UTC

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #131

klausa wrote: post #87

You see, I have problem with posts like this. First I'm like - "Woah, I can't imagine someone would be so insensitive to make joke like this!" and get all fed up and upset. But then... then I freeze, because next example is something that I can imagine myself saying. "Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!" I... I'm at loss of words. I was trained during my teenage years, that it's coo…

"Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!"...As I'm getting older, I see how sexist and demeaning this is. At the risk of revealing myself to be a chauvinistic jerk, is this kind of response sexist and demeaning, or just inappropriate for the workplace? Why do women wear low-cut dresses if not to attract male attention (in the majority of cases)? Would it be sexist and demeaning for me to not…

[deleted]

Re: "Lighten up"

#146

Post by jamesaguilar » Wed, Mar 21, 2012, 9:57 PM UTC

netmau5 wrote: post #125

I like to joke around and have a good time while doing serious work. This isnt some profound optimization technique, just something that makes my day happier and usually that of those around me. However, my general rule of thumb is to never directly engage a female at the workplace outside of a purely professional, subdued necessity. They are too sensitive. While I know I have good intentions and care for their happi…

I can tell you from experience that women in the workplace are fine with joking around and having a laugh. The folks in my office have very casual and friendly relationships and we often find ourselves discussing, and joking about, very sensitive topics, the women included.

The issue is not that women are too sensitive to joke with or talk with about these things. The issue is when those jokes are made at the expense of women, targeted at women, or degrading to women. And that's going to be true for most women both in and out of the workplace.

Re: "Lighten up"

#147

Post by InclinedPlane » Wed, Mar 21, 2012, 9:57 PM UTC

crusso wrote: post #13

@kcunning - How do you contrast your desire to have a perfectly professional relationship with everyone you work with vs a desire to enjoy an office environment where you can joke around and have fun? While I understand your answer may well be, "Leave the jokes at home, Mr. Colbert. I'm here to code and make a paycheck." I would be sad if my relationship with my coworkers couldn't handle, let alone thrive upon, humor…

This ain't rocket science, it's trivial.

It's called having boundaries. You may reach into the pants of your lover but you damned sure aren't going to do that to a stranger or a coworker, right? Do most people have trouble keeping track of what things are appropriate in which contexts?

Around coworkers you act professionally. If you develop a friendship with your coworkers then you can change the way you act around those coworkers. If you become friends with a female coworker and she is ok with you making casually sexist jokes, then that's fine. But until you've crossed that friendship boundary then you should rightly feel inhibited to "make jokes" like that to a female coworker.

Re: "Lighten up"

#148

Post by yelsgib » Wed, Mar 21, 2012, 9:57 PM UTC

I find posts like this extremely frustrating.

Yes, I feel sorry for this woman.

However, I also feel sorry for all male programmers. A lot of male programmers I've met have extremely pent-up sexual drives. A lot of them do not feel comfortable with women or society.

The prototypical male programmer was extremely nerdy in adolescence, had minimal interaction with women, and sex life - forget it. Now they are working in a job where they can just do what they like - program - and a woman comes along with all those pheremones and everything. And yes he acts awkward and crazy because holy shit there is a WOMAN who does what he does.

I fucking hate all of this talk about "manchildren" and "brogrammers" and whatever else. Stop essentializing the problem. Stop the man hate. Fucking hell.

Do you really think the man who said:

"Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!"

is a happy, mentally-healthy, well-adjusted human being? Hmmm? Where's the compassion for him?

Why is our reaction to superficial wrongdoing so fucking immediate and moralistic? As if he's not a person with his own problems?

I'm at a loss for words, this whole clusterfuck makes me so angry.

Re: "Lighten up"

#149

Post by indspenceable » Wed, Mar 21, 2012, 9:58 PM UTC

bh42222 wrote: post #50

tptacek wrote: post #11

It's a big deal. Not "lightening up" is a service to the company (and, I guess, the whole industry). I'm married to a woman who has put up with a lot of shit in this field (for instance: job interviews in which she was shown pictures of her interviewer's bare ass; I was, fortunately for all involved, in a different state when that happened) and am the father of an absurdly intelligent 10 year old girl who will, with…

job interviews in which she was shown pictures of her interviewer's bare ass; Holly horror story! Sadly I am not surprised to hear this, because I've heard many similar stories. And yet out of the very large number of male friends in the industry I have, including myself, none of us have ever or would ever do anything like that. The paradox here is answered by the fact that a tiny share of creeps will always be found…

Certainly not. But I can certainly empathize with a complaint raised in the article. Essentially, if you know "Lighten up" seems equivalent to acknowledging the lack of respect being shown, but refusing to own up to it. While it's easy for you to say "Oh, I only said one thing! Why is she so mad?" thats, sort of the entire point of the article - everyone just saying one thing adds up to a lot.

Re: "Lighten up"

#150

Post by jamesaguilar » Wed, Mar 21, 2012, 9:58 PM UTC

crusso wrote: post #112

pingswept wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think there's a conflict between sexism and fun? As in, "Well, I'd like to stop making sexist jokes, but then it would be so boring here." I would rather work in an office where the jokes are of the funny sort, rather than the makes-one-person-feel-miserable sort. I really don't think there's any overlap between funny jokes and sexist jokes.

> Do you think there's a conflict between sexism and fun? As in, "Well, I'd like to stop making sexist jokes, but then it would be so boring here." I would phrase it, "If everyone's humor had to be bland Disney G-rated fare, then a lot of fun would have been sucked out of our work environment."

There's plenty of R-rated humor that's not degrading to women.