Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Getting a job at Apple without going to college or doing LeetCode

aheze.substack.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

141–150 of 399 posts

Re: Getting a job at Apple without going to college or doing LeetCode

#141

Post by thereisnojesus »

TrevorAustin wrote: post #120
Eddygandr wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't the guy who made Homebrew fail his interview at Google because he couldn't invert a binary tree? That's a guy who has built a popular product in the wild and can clearly code but failed because of the leetcode barrier at all IC levels.

To be fair, Homebrew is great product design, but actually pretty janky software engineering. Anyone who's had it wreck their PATH a couple of times isn't going to be an automatic yes vote on a technical screen.

Yes, we are aware companies hire privileged losers instead of skilled employees

Re: Getting a job at Apple without going to college or doing LeetCode

#142

Post by dazh »

stevebmark wrote: post #121

A nice story, and a unique situation from someone who obviously shouldn’t be giving anyone advice.

Yeah, I'd bet that there was probably only a handful of people like this in the entire intern class. I wouldn't put all my effort or hold out for a case like this. Your time would be better spent doing LeetCode.

Re: Getting a job at Apple without going to college or doing LeetCode

#143

Post by hotnfresh »

KaiserPro wrote: post #30

The problem is that "leetcode" is a definitely a thing that exists in "FAANG" interviews. The biggest stumbling block with leetcode is that you shouldn't be programming like that in real life. "make a linked list" no, just use a library like everyone else. "Implement addition in python but with string inputs", "no you can't use the built in x" All of that "clever" shit should be filtered out at PR/MR/diff review time…

What’s funny is that in most positions the hard work has nothing to do with any of that. It’s communication, empathy, navigating people-problems and organizational dysfunction, and working with/around awful systems that you can’t change, while limiting their blast-radius to protect the business (and your own sanity).

You can always just google how to invert a binary tree or whatever and get a solid answer in no time. Which means it’s easy shit. Unless you’re one of a few devs doing PhD level work in the industry, that CS-heavy “mathy” stuff’s not the hardest thing you’re dealing with, and being good at that indicates almost nothing about your ability to deal with the hard problems you will encounter on the job.

(or else you’re greenfielding at a startup and are doing everything on easy-mode anyway, aside from problems you create for yourself on purpose or by accident)

Re: Getting a job at Apple without going to college or doing LeetCode

#144

Post by thereisnojesus »

sdfghswe wrote: post #64
KaiserPro wrote: post #30

The problem is that "leetcode" is a definitely a thing that exists in "FAANG" interviews. The biggest stumbling block with leetcode is that you shouldn't be programming like that in real life. "make a linked list" no, just use a library like everyone else. "Implement addition in python but with string inputs", "no you can't use the built in x" All of that "clever" shit should be filtered out at PR/MR/diff review time…

Just use a library, but those who can implement the library are better than the ones who can't. And that's what leetcode aims to distinguish. You thought the point of leetcode was to simulate live work conditions? lol

What is it for. I don't think anyone here understands its purpose anymore.

Re: Getting a job at Apple without going to college or doing LeetCode

#145

Post by PaulRobinson »

MichaelZuo wrote: post #109
PaulRobinson wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is though how do you evaluate for real work without a portfolio of experience? Real work projects take weeks - perhaps months - to design, build, review and release. How do you test for that, really? I agree leetcode style interviews are artificial, but I think they persist because few people have identified and popularised effective alternatives. At least with leetcode you've shown people in front of you…

It seems fairly straightforward to just ask verbal questions? For example, if the position is mostly coding C then just get them to explain how some X interacts with some Y and how that interacts with some Z. Maybe with a copy of of K&R and get them to point to page so and so. Do that a few times, maybe use a whiteboard, and I think any experienced C developer will be able to tell who's faking it and who really under…

Not the point you’re making but in a C shop, if I interview and somebody pulls out K&R in 2023, they’re not getting hired.

I get the wider point you’re making, and yes, a chat can help. Elsewhere in a reply to this I talk about how I personally like to do that, but the problem is, a significant number of people can talk about coding but can’t actually code.

I once interviewed somebody who had passed 3 previous calls. Asked them to implement fizzbuzz. Couldn’t.

That is a real problem. It’s not myth.

As such, I’m not hiring somebody without seen them writing code the same way I wouldn’t hire a designer without seeing their actual personal portfolio.

Re: Getting a job at Apple without going to college or doing LeetCode

#146

Post by dehrmann »

TrevorAustin wrote: post #120
Eddygandr wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't the guy who made Homebrew fail his interview at Google because he couldn't invert a binary tree? That's a guy who has built a popular product in the wild and can clearly code but failed because of the leetcode barrier at all IC levels.

To be fair, Homebrew is great product design, but actually pretty janky software engineering. Anyone who's had it wreck their PATH a couple of times isn't going to be an automatic yes vote on a technical screen.

Long ago, I switched to MacPorts because its path and directory story is better, and I didn't find myself having to run chown to fix things.

Re: Getting a job at Apple without going to college or doing LeetCode

#147

Post by sithlord »

paxys wrote: post #137

Eh, you didn't get a "job" you got an internship. The hiring process for that is obviously more lax than for a full time position.

its generally not, because they fully want to convert you to fte.

sure, they have extra time to see you work before the conversion, but its still very expensive to host interns, especially ones you aren't confident in converting.

Re: Getting a job at Apple without going to college or doing LeetCode

#148

Post by minimaxir »

stevebmark wrote: post #121

A nice story, and a unique situation from someone who obviously shouldn’t be giving anyone advice.

I too got my first job in tech at Apple in 2012 without a CS degree or taking any LeetCodes.

I got discovered due to my frequent shitposting in the comments section of TechCrunch.

I don't offer any career advice.

Re: Getting a job at Apple without going to college or doing LeetCode

#149

Post by olnluis »

paxys wrote: post #137

Eh, you didn't get a "job" you got an internship. The hiring process for that is obviously more lax than for a full time position.

Eh, well I'd like to agree, I know more than a few people that had harder internship interviews compared to their fulltime ones.

Luck is definitely a factor in interviews. You can never be fully prepared even if you 100% match the posted job requirements, so you better hope your interview relates to stuff you are prepared for....

This is, of course, just anecdote, but one of them was a good friend who failed their internship interview and passed a fulltime interview just 6 months later, both at Google... so there wasn't that much of a skill difference in-between.

Post reply on HN