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Lichess will no longer cooperate with the USCF and the Saint Louis Chess Club

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141–150 of 160 posts

Re: Lichess will no longer cooperate with the USCF and the Saint Louis Chess Club

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The possibility of discrimination exists in all cases where any human entity, whether individual or group, judges another human entity. This is widely accepted in human societies as a necessary risk of being able to judge others as fit or unfit for participation, and Lichess is exercising their right to do so, just as all other human entities may choose to do. Until a pattern of bias is demonstrated, such judgments a…

> Until a pattern of bias is demonstrated, such judgments are neither implicitly discriminatory, ... I mean, by definition they are discriminatory though: you are choosing to discriminate between individuals that you will associate with and those you won't. This is not inherently bad, but can definitely be unjust toward those on the receiving end even if it's justifiable by the discriminator. For instance, maybe a ne…

Exclusion is not necessarily discrimination. Discrimination is a subset of exclusion, not an equivalent of it. People will be hurt by exclusion. Overuse of exclusion is a possible downside. Enforcement of bias through exclusion is a possible downside. Neither of these potentials means that exclusion is always discrimination. In most circumstances, exclusion is simply exclusion.

When exclusion is used in service to a bias and exists explicitly to disadvantage those the bias is against, that becomes discriminatory exclusion. Lichess is exercising their right to exclude here. You could construct a plausible argument that Lichess is discriminating against organizations that refuse to take a stand against sexual predation upon women and minors; I would absolutely agree.

However, “organizations that refuse to take a stand against sexual predation” is not a legally protected category, and so harassment laws do not apply. By the arguments of the top comments on this post, then, Lichess’s actions are lawful and therefore permissible.

If you’re able to identify amother category where their actions are biased against a protected group, that’s a good tangent, I suppose. But non-religious organizations don’t qualify for such protections, and so any actions taken here against these two chess organizations, are not grounds for a finding of discrimination — regardless of whether their exclusion is deemed to be discriminatory or not.

Re: Lichess will no longer cooperate with the USCF and the Saint Louis Chess Club

#142
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But Lichess has neither the means nor interest in uncovering the truth. So why active as a judge?

> But Lichess has neither the means nor interest in uncovering the truth. I don't see how that follows at all? Obviously they have interest. As for means, what more do you want? We have a public accusation from a victim in her own words under her own name. Maybe you choose not to believe her, but that's absolutely admissible as evidence. Why doesn't it count here? The subtext to all of this pontification is clearly n…

As a male who was wrongfully accused of sexual assault by a covert narcissist, and basically expelled from communities I've been part of for all my life, I find it hard to see this as merely a "culture war". I used to instantly side with the "victim", because I couldn't imagine that someone would invent claims in such a sick and cruel way.

I am not saying that this happens often, there's just no way to know. And maybe it's still better to "play it safe". It's hard, but I've personally grown to accept that I have to live with "being the perpetrator" in the eyes of most. I lost most of my what I considered to be my friends, and my professional career. But the few remaining ones who believe me I now know I can fully trust.

Re: Lichess will no longer cooperate with the USCF and the Saint Louis Chess Club

#143
post #5

I'm confused what Lichess wanted here. One woman complained. USCF assigned her an escort. More women complained. USCF banned the guy. This sounds completely reasonable, unless the first woman provided proof, you can't just ban someone because of an allegation. But they took steps to ensure her safety at future events. What does Lichess want here? They say it's insufficient, but they never really say what should have…

You absolutely can ban someone because of an allegation. It's a chess club. The worst punishment they can levy is banishment. That doesn't need the kind of "beyond reasonable doubt" certainty that a court throwing you in prison needs.

Everything is fine till it happens to you.

Im sure you've watched House M.D

Re: Lichess will no longer cooperate with the USCF and the Saint Louis Chess Club

#144
post #71
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We know from painful experience that some accusations are baseless. there are people who will allege harm just to get rid of an opponent they do not want to play against. As such it is really hard to figure out what of the thousands of things they can do are really the right thing to do.

"Some accusations have at some point been baseless" is utterly irrelevant. Are these accusations baseless? Multiple ones, from multiple people, about the same person, over years? No, they're not. Done. End of story. That would be like arguing: some logical statements are false, therefore the truth of logical statements is unknowable. Lol, no, it just depends on the statement . (Nowhere in this article, by the way, di…

People collude. The matter was dealt with inappropriately. But one person's word should rarely be enough

Re: Lichess will no longer cooperate with the USCF and the Saint Louis Chess Club

#145
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And from what I can see those courts have shown to be pretty ineffective against crimes like sexual assault.

Why are you being downvoted? https://www.rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-system I definetly agree with user glenda, but if anyone disagrees at the very least leave a comment explaining why!

Glenda wants extra judicial methods where a single accusation leads to banishment

Re: Lichess will no longer cooperate with the USCF and the Saint Louis Chess Club

#146
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

doesn’t really apply to the court of public opinion i strongly disagree with that. allowing public opinion to judge people without proof leads to mob rule. any rumor can destroy someones life. as a society we must not allow that to happen. innocent until proven guilty should apply to every interaction we have with any human being. if there are suspicions it is ok to take precautions, and obviously those who are victi…

> innocent until proven guilty should apply to every interaction we have with any human being. that is ludicrous. people are free to have red flags that cause them to cut ties with other people without clearing any evidentiary bar. that is part of entirely healthy human behavior.

Like I've said elsewhere. Everything is simple till it happens to you

Re: Lichess will no longer cooperate with the USCF and the Saint Louis Chess Club

#147
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> innocent until proven guilty should apply to every interaction we have with any human being. that is ludicrous. people are free to have red flags that cause them to cut ties with other people without clearing any evidentiary bar. that is part of entirely healthy human behavior.

individuals maybe, but large organizations that people depend on no. and even as individuals we need to be careful to not allow prejudice to control our actions. some people take "being black" as a red flag.

the fact that some people treat 'being black' as a red flag, doesn't negate the utility of treating 'probably a narcissist' as a red flag.

Re: Lichess will no longer cooperate with the USCF and the Saint Louis Chess Club

#148
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

individuals maybe, but large organizations that people depend on no. and even as individuals we need to be careful to not allow prejudice to control our actions. some people take "being black" as a red flag.

the fact that some people treat 'being black' as a red flag, doesn't negate the utility of treating 'probably a narcissist' as a red flag.

it does negate people are free to have red flags that cause them to cut ties with other people because you are not free to have whatever red flags you want. if you see red flags you should evaluate them and make sure they are not just prejudice.

Re: Lichess will no longer cooperate with the USCF and the Saint Louis Chess Club

#149
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the fact that some people treat 'being black' as a red flag, doesn't negate the utility of treating 'probably a narcissist' as a red flag.

it does negate people are free to have red flags that cause them to cut ties with other people because you are not free to have whatever red flags you want. if you see red flags you should evaluate them and make sure they are not just prejudice.

you're actually free to be racist in your personal life. nobody will imprison you.

Re: Lichess will no longer cooperate with the USCF and the Saint Louis Chess Club

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You absolutely can ban someone because of an allegation. It's a chess club. The worst punishment they can levy is banishment. That doesn't need the kind of "beyond reasonable doubt" certainty that a court throwing you in prison needs.

Everything is fine till it happens to you. Im sure you've watched House M.D

If this kind of ban was happening all over the place for similar reasons I’d argue that you have a point. After digging a bit, however, I wasn’t able to find many males banned for harassment or assault on another member. So it seems you’re protesting on the basis of an unlikely hypothetical scenario.
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