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Johnson and Johnson sues researchers who linked talc to cancer

reuters.com

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Re: Johnson and Johnson sues researchers who linked talc to cancer

#141
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the mechanism for the talc -> {ovarian cancer, mesothelioma} connection much clearer and stronger though? That talc co-occurs with asbestos, which is known to be highly carcinogenic and to cause the types of cancers being encountered here. The asbestos fibers were also (allegedly) found in laboratory analysis of samples of the commercial talc powder product.

> The asbestos fibers were also (allegedly) found in laboratory analysis of samples of the commercial talc powder product. Were they found in ovarian cancers? What's the clear link?

This is transitive risk.

Asbestos is clearly linked to cancer > asbestos was found in talc and known to form with talc naturally > risk of using talc that isn’t pure.

The problem is whether talc is pure. At that point it becomes a question of how much you trust J&J to verify that. My guess is that different mined sources varied in asbestos composition and there likely was some contamination that went undetected. But who knows.

Re: Johnson and Johnson sues researchers who linked talc to cancer

#142

As someone who did a PhD and published and read many papers (in ML) I believe vast majority of papers in ML are misleading. If in fact every paper that claims a better performance over state of the art was true we would have solved AI by now. You see all sorts of problems when you dig deeper into the technical details of peer reviewed publications (even in top tier conferences) including misleading baselines, statist…

Having a similar background (PhD in math, working in deep learning), so knowing nothing of the specifics of medicine, I think that, if anything, there the situation is probably _worse_. Results are less transparent, and you can't just read a paper and know if the results are made "look nicer", if you don't have the raw numbers of the experiments (which you almost never have). At least, in ML you typically can get an idea by reading the paper attentively, and if you're determinate enough, often you even have the source code to check.

I guess that's why in medicine (and some other sciences), meta-reviews are so important: they read dozens or hundreds of papers on the same topic, compare methodologies, and try to deduce more realistic confidence intervals to limit statistical noise. That's how we now know that smoking definitely leads to higher probability of cancer, and most likely that's the case with red meat (and even more likely with smoked or otherwise preserved meat). The risk increases are small enough that a single study can never have the statistical power to prove it. Otherwise, when the famously wrong paper linking vaccines and autism came out, all families of poor autistic children could sue a lot (it was later proved that that one paper was fabricated with malice, but that doesn't change anything, if it were a random error the effect would be the same)

This is why I share your concern for the billions of $ in sues due to this one paper. I have no idea who is abstractly "right" - it might be there was asbestos, or maybe not, and it might be that these talc products increased cancer likelihood, or maybe not. But health, and particularly cancer, is tricky: we all develop multiple cancers, sooner or later, unless we die before. Trying to pinpoint a specific cancer to a source is like fining the proverbial last straw that broke the camel's back - except that in this case it's not the sum of the straws that kill the camel, but rather one random straw across all its load.

That said, I don't want to use this argument to wave company responsibilities away - of course companies who knowingly neglected safety measures, or endangered patient safety, should be punished with large fines (and possibly forced to shut down, in particularly extreme cases). As a European, I'm just uncomfortable with the idea of settling this in spectacular "patient vs. company" trials, where everything is dictated by the ability of lawyers and the will of judges, with results rather randomly ranging from nothing to literally making you rich (and again, your particular cancer might or might not be caused by that... and you can't really know, in any way). With the small additional caveat that you must have survived that in the first place, in order for the company to actually be significantly punished.

Re: Johnson and Johnson sues researchers who linked talc to cancer

#143
post #20

Apropos of anything else, J&J's handling of this has been despicable. Creating an entity specifically to pick up all of the related liabilities, picking up those liabilities and then (exact count may be wrong, but it's very close) literally filing for bankruptcy within the space of three days. The Texas two-step, as it's called. > In 2021, the company spun off its liabilities into a new entity called LTL Management u…

Having read the Matt Levine piece linked below ( https://archive.is/KcL2P ) I think that J&J did the right thing by attempting to use bankruptcy to organize payments. It was not avoiding liability at all. The court that dismissed the claim in general agreed with J&J's process, but said it was too early. Some key quote from Levine: > Juries in the US don’t like it when companies make products that kill people, and the…

> The basic idea of bankruptcy is that if you have a company with $1,000 of assets and $2,000 of liabilities, you can’t pay back everyone everything you owe them. You could just pay back the first creditors who show up and ask for their money back, until the $1,000 is gone, and then give the remaining creditors zero, but that seems unfair

I'm entirely unconvinced that J&J couldn't pay back everything they owe, to everyone they owe it to, without bankruptcy and the fact that they were able to avoid all of those individual lawsuits is already J&J getting off the hook unfairly and avoiding their full liability.

If I'm wrong about that and without bankruptcy J&J would be forced to go out of business before everyone could get paid, then no matter if they use bankruptcy or not, the end result of that bankruptcy should still mean that every penny they have goes to their victims and the families of their victims (evenly distributed or whatever) until J&J actually does go out of business.

If J&J in, any form, survives because of this “Texas two-step" then the “Texas two-step" is an insult to victims and to justice and should be outlawed.

Perhaps bankruptcy is a great way to divide up whatever is owed to everyone, but as long as J&J continues to exist it means that they got off the hook. Honestly, many of J&J's serial killers and mass poisoners should be locked up for the rest of their lives. Murder was extremely profitable for them. They'll do it again if they have the opportunity.

Re: Johnson and Johnson sues researchers who linked talc to cancer

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you measure consensus? There are many researchers who claim there's a consensus of whatever they happen to believe, but when counter-examples are pointed out they start No True Scotsmanning ("no real expert believes..."). Health related research is in a much worse state than ML unfortunately. ML suffers from metrics gaming and overfitting but there's probably not much outright fraud? Common estimates are that…

> well, there are all these universities and professors who have tenure, there are all these journals, there are all these systems and people have been promised lifetime employment.” Odd that tenure is singled out as the core of the problem. I'd say the undermining of tenure is a large part of the problem. Research is hard - very hard - you are being asked to discover stuff nobody else has - to push the boundaries of…

Research might be hard, harder than whatever else the rest of the world is doing, but the tenure system is not giving us the best researchers. It rewards those that are at the right place at the right time, it's mostly luck of the current spectacle, and then it sets those "accomplished" people up for failure as they eventually see their luck running out. They are very motivated to use less and less ethical tools for years to keep producing "results".

Re: Johnson and Johnson sues researchers who linked talc to cancer

#145
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is a class action somehow impossible if they don't declare bankruptcy? Or they can't distribute money as easily as in a class action? The issue is that there might be multiple actions, and compensation might be used up byt the first one (eg, if the company was sent into bankruptcy by the first class action, then subsequent cases would be useless). This is a pretty reasonable argument IMHO. > Further, if your compan…

Thats not actually the issue with talc. The talc itself is not believed to be the carcinagen, but the talc is contaminated with asbestos. Interal documents show that J&J knew about the contamination since 1971. Asbestos was known to be carcinegic at this point and the first bans of asbestos use in construction began rolling out in 1972. They knew and hid the health risks, just like a cigarette company.

They should be behind bars. They're serial killers.

Re: Johnson and Johnson sues researchers who linked talc to cancer

#146
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is a class action somehow impossible if they don't declare bankruptcy? Or they can't distribute money as easily as in a class action? The issue is that there might be multiple actions, and compensation might be used up byt the first one (eg, if the company was sent into bankruptcy by the first class action, then subsequent cases would be useless). This is a pretty reasonable argument IMHO. > Further, if your compan…

> Further, if your company produces products that kill or injure people, then why should we show any interest in maintaining that companies existence with odd legal hacks like this? > This seems fairly debatable. To be fair, we might not have some of the drugs many of us are prescribed to us if we just cancelled every company that ever hurt anyone with experimental drugs.

J&J wasn't accidentally hurting people with experimental drugs.

They had full knowledge that they were poisoning people, and they actively hid that from the people they were killing, because J&J wanted more of their victim's money before they died, and a continuous supply of new victims to take the place of the old ones.

Re: Johnson and Johnson sues researchers who linked talc to cancer

#147
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> well, there are all these universities and professors who have tenure, there are all these journals, there are all these systems and people have been promised lifetime employment.” Odd that tenure is singled out as the core of the problem. I'd say the undermining of tenure is a large part of the problem. Research is hard - very hard - you are being asked to discover stuff nobody else has - to push the boundaries of…

Research might be hard, harder than whatever else the rest of the world is doing, but the tenure system is not giving us the best researchers. It rewards those that are at the right place at the right time, it's mostly luck of the current spectacle, and then it sets those "accomplished" people up for failure as they eventually see their luck running out. They are very motivated to use less and less ethical tools for…

This also describes the ultra-wealthy quite well, but few are in favor of a wealth tax.

Re: Johnson and Johnson sues researchers who linked talc to cancer

#148

If indeed the researchers did conceal that the subjects had other exposure to asbestos, that would be pretty bad? As we've seen in a number of other recent cases research is by no means free of malfeasance. Even research performed to some statistical standard may fall far short of truly indicating a casual link. These researchers have gained materially from the output of their research (expert witnesses do not testif…

> If indeed the researchers did conceal that the subjects had other exposure to asbestos, that would be pretty bad? It depends. Were the subjects actually exposed in a meaningful way to another source of asbestos, or did the corporate lawyers go fishing through past address history, purchases, etc. and will argue things like "Subject A visited Australia ten years before the study and was in a city where some older st…

>Were the subjects actually exposed in a meaningful way to another source of asbestos

One of the subjects previously filed a workers comp claim for asbestos exposure at a textile plant where she worked, despite being considered to have had no asbestos exposure other than from cosmetic talc for the purposes of the quoted study.

https://retractionwatch.com/2023/01/24/jj-subsidiary-alleges...

Re: Johnson and Johnson sues researchers who linked talc to cancer

#149
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having read the Matt Levine piece linked below ( https://archive.is/KcL2P ) I think that J&J did the right thing by attempting to use bankruptcy to organize payments. It was not avoiding liability at all. The court that dismissed the claim in general agreed with J&J's process, but said it was too early. Some key quote from Levine: > Juries in the US don’t like it when companies make products that kill people, and the…

> The basic idea of bankruptcy is that if you have a company with $1,000 of assets and $2,000 of liabilities, you can’t pay back everyone everything you owe them. You could just pay back the first creditors who show up and ask for their money back, until the $1,000 is gone, and then give the remaining creditors zero, but that seems unfair I'm entirely unconvinced that J&J couldn't pay back everything they owe, to eve…

I was a juror on a very small case. A previous trial assigned guilt. Our trial was to determine damages. It was eye opening for me. We were not allowed to know things like medical bills and costs the victim incurred. We were forced to choose some number without having an basis for establishing the magnitude. I still don’t know if we were too high or too low.

Re: Johnson and Johnson sues researchers who linked talc to cancer

#150
post #137

Scratching the surface on talc, it's difficult to determine what should/should-not be done. Cancer.org has a page on talc[0] and from it: > Studies of personal use of talcum powder have had mixed results, although there is some suggestion of a possible increase in ovarian cancer risk. There is very little evidence at this time that any other forms of cancer are linked with consumer use of talcum powder. > Until more…

No doubt I'll be downloaded into oblivion, but it's a massive money making venture for lawyers, similar to "silicone breast implants cause cancer" back in the 90's (which turned out to be false). The FDA did test randomly test a bunch of talc products and the "FDA found “sub-trace” levels, or no greater than 0.00002%, of chrysotile asbestos contamination in a bottle purchased from an online retailer." That's 0.2 part…

That’s bananas. Self reported data is garbage.
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