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I Was a Warehouse Wage Slave: Inside the online-shopping shipping machine

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141–150 of 209 posts

Re: I Was a Warehouse Wage Slave: Inside the online-shopping shipping machine

#141
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're implying direct causal links. I'm talking about synergies, all the components I mentioned (and many others I didn't) operating together as a system. Religion affects how people vote. Voting affects foreign policy. Foreign policy affects international trade. And on and on. For a more concrete example: American capitalism isn't composed just of our currency and the laws on the books regarding incorporation, prop…

If you phrase it this way, I can agree with some of your points. I think, more than "allowing people to become rich", I would state "respect and recognition of private property" a an important philosophical factor to enable economic growth. As of today, I have yet to hear about societies where "everything belongs to everyone" ending up being economically successful. So that might be one trait leading to success or im…

> respect and recognition of private property

At some level, private property is an invention of the State. Without that, the property belongs to whoever can defend it, and whoever has the most guns wins.

This becomes even more significant with the advent of intellectual property, also an invention of the State. There are many digital examples of "everything belongs to everyone" that are going extremely well, and luckily with zero government tyranny required. Meanwhile, the patent system is a mixed bag at best: sometimes promoting/reward innovation, sometimes inhibiting/punishing it. I don't know how this balance should be struck between sharing and ownership, but I know that the way we're handling it now is deeply sub-optimal.

The concept of ownership and the ways in which we trade are social constructs, the economic "rules of the road". They are malleable, not inherent, and we can rewrite those rules however we wish to manage externalities such as worker safety or environmental damage. Obviously, if it is done poorly (or disingenuously), the results will not go well. But we take for granted the times when it does go well.

> The book "The Not so Wild Wild West"

I'll look into this. I'm definitely a proponent of the social contract occurring at a more local level, where people are actually people instead of numbers in a database. But I'm skeptical that it is enough sustain this thing we call civilization. Just because people can be rational and altruistic does not mean they will.

> when a society decides to indulge in welfare and collectivism, it almost never goes back and ends up going bankrupt and ruining everyone

There is an element of truth to this; many European entitlements go too far and cost too much (as has often happened with American unions as well). But I don't buy that social programs are inherently inefficient; there are many things that matter which don't show up on balance sheets. Stress, health, environment, social bonds, self-determination, respect: these things all matter to a society's quality of life and its bottom line, but are very hard to measure or draw profit from.

Also, we must look at the other side of the historical coin: turn-of-the-century America, where industry held all the bargaining power, and the whole family had to work 60+ hour weeks in dangerous factories with no human rights protections. Or, workers who lived in "company towns", in a life one step away from indentured servitude. I have a hard time not seeing strong similarities between Amalgamated Warehouse Whatever and the Dickensian hellscape of a century ago (or Foxconn, for that matter).

I suppose I just don't like dogma: MARKETS GOOD, GOVERNMENT BAD. The common thread between democracy and capitalism is to lessen the corrupting influence of power by distributing it: one person = one vote, and every person wielding their own power over buying and selling. But there is no system that is immune from manipulation and corruption; the incentive to game the system and maximize one's own power to the detriment of others will never go away. If we want to prevent tyranny, we have to constantly evolve ways to distribute power again, whether it takes the form of markets, governments, communities, or new organizational patterns we haven't thought of yet.

Re: I Was a Warehouse Wage Slave: Inside the online-shopping shipping machine

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My question is whether Sweden pays a higher price for oil (ignoring taxes) than the US, not whether the US attempts to keep oil prices low. None of your links address the question I actually asked. If Iraqi oil is fully exploited, I agree this will result in lower oil prices. But oil prices are set by the global market - the price Sweden pays = global price + shipping cost, same as the US.

This is not about the price of oil. Sweden and the US may pay the same price. But who's extracting it? Who's making the profit in the sale?

[deleted]

Re: I Was a Warehouse Wage Slave: Inside the online-shopping shipping machine

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not about the price of oil. Sweden and the US may pay the same price. But who's extracting it? Who's making the profit in the sale?

It's not about the price of oil? This chain of comments was sparked by yummyfajitas asking "does the US pay less to import oil or steel than Sweden or something?", which seems fairly focused on price. And he was replying to a comment that claimed that American prosperity was due, in part, to "military might abused to ensure cheap oil and resources". Which, again, seems awfully focused on price. Now, you might want to…

You said so yourself, the US and Sweden pay the same rates. What's left is who's making the profit on the sales for the next 30 years. No wonder the guys drilling works for an American company. Somebody has to lobby right?

I wasn't suggesting that this was about American prosperity. I was suggesting that this is about who's lobbying Congress to do what and with what money.

Re: I Was a Warehouse Wage Slave: Inside the online-shopping shipping machine

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But with robots, you can probably get them to be cheaper even when taking into account seasonality. The real problem is that lots of manufacturers/wareshouses only keep a 3 year investment horizon. If they invested with a 10 year payoff, a lot more automation is possible. (It mirrors the problem in the economy as a whole - short termism)

> "But with robots, you can probably get them to be cheaper even when taking into account seasonality." I can't say much without violating some NDA or another, but I'd check that assumption. Industrial robotics are anything but cheap, and remember, you're stacking them up against near-minimum wage laborers who have little to no benefits and you only pay for them when they're utilized.

Why not combine the two? Robots all year round and then hire short term laborers for the seasonal peak times.

Re: I Was a Warehouse Wage Slave: Inside the online-shopping shipping machine

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1000 robots needing just 30 minutes of preventative maintenance per week is 500 hours of PM a week. That sounds like about the amount of PM a staff of 20 engineers can supply, once you account for admin, PTO, training, travel between robots, and doing the actual work. Engineer does not solely mean "one who creates software".

The word you are looking for is "technician".

Well, everyone's an engineer nowadays. My company has "custom service engineers." =)

Re: I Was a Warehouse Wage Slave: Inside the online-shopping shipping machine

#146
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

only a small handful from the list you gave is actually none-contributing. The 60% of the people that derive income from gov't handouts are leeching off those who do actually work - tell me how that is fair? Disabled people/old people are dependants, but they not a majority, and as for children, they _will_ create value when they grow up. I m talking about abled bodied people who choose to get a gov't handout instead…

There is certain fallacy in that. I've never met a person who has ever thought he would like to mooch off welfare or what have you forever, or even a short amount of time. There are barriers that are difficult to see for many middle class people to see. The choice between welfare and work for many people is not between a welfare and a cubicle writing java code, but between welfare and humiliating treatment or backbre…

I've never met a person who has ever thought he would like to mooch off welfare or what have you forever, or even a short amount of time.

I have. I currently live in a town where, due to the recession, a large percentage of people are living on social welfare. The thing is that a shockingly large number of them (that I know personally) have no ambition to do anything else. Some of these have been on welfare for five years already. I mean, why work when the government will just give you money, right? Another shockingly large number of young couples are having children because they see the extra child benefit money - someone that I know personally who already has two children under the age of four and wants a third one recently said how much easier their life would be with the social welfare benefits of a third child... I'm not sure if they ever considered that 1) children get significantly more expensive as they get older and 2) how unfair it is to the children to bring them into a low income family. But thats besides the point: my main point is that I do, unfortunately, know people who are happy to get handouts and have no ambitions to change any time soon.

Re: I Was a Warehouse Wage Slave: Inside the online-shopping shipping machine

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about the price of oil? This chain of comments was sparked by yummyfajitas asking "does the US pay less to import oil or steel than Sweden or something?", which seems fairly focused on price. And he was replying to a comment that claimed that American prosperity was due, in part, to "military might abused to ensure cheap oil and resources". Which, again, seems awfully focused on price. Now, you might want to…

You said so yourself, the US and Sweden pay the same rates. What's left is who's making the profit on the sales for the next 30 years. No wonder the guys drilling works for an American company. Somebody has to lobby right? I wasn't suggesting that this was about American prosperity. I was suggesting that this is about who's lobbying Congress to do what and with what money.

So if we go up...six levels of comments, we reach batista saying: "And, no, the reason US has a slightly more advanced economy than, say, Sweden, is not due to harsh working conditions. It's has more to do with human capital, a large unified market PLUS tons of military might abused to ensure cheap oil and resources."

Now you say "I wasn't suggesting that this was about American prosperity." Which I think means you agree with everyone in this branch of the discussion except batista (who's the only one who asserted that it was about American prosperity). shrug In any case, I agree with you. Just another textbook example of public choice theory, of the sort you'll hear about endlessly if you hang out at Ron Paul rallies.

Re: I Was a Warehouse Wage Slave: Inside the online-shopping shipping machine

#148
post #83

"I probably look happier than I should because I have the extreme luxury of not giving a shit about keeping this job." Great quote there. That's really a key to being happy in any job. Her description of this job doesn't sound all that bad you get exercise and paid above minimum wage plus overtime.

I was going to upvote you for the quote, but then I got to "her description of this job doesn't sound all that bad"... It sounds pretty bad to me, at least for a first-world country.

Re: I Was a Warehouse Wage Slave: Inside the online-shopping shipping machine

#149
post #29
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Re-read that article and tell me you want any human being to have to work like that for more than a week in a supposedly 1st-world country. Those people are subsidizing your low prices by taking 800mg of advil a day to be able to get a paycheck and deferring the health disaster they will have in a few years without insurance. If you do not have unions or government regulation, big business sets the rules and you end…

Read past the first couple of words of my comment and you'll see that I agree that worker protections are important, I'm just saying that unions have historically created a whole host of hard to solve problems and are not a good way to deal with this. No job availability is still generally the worst possible outcome in a country without strong social safety nets like the US, so don't underestimate the importance of c…

Unions exist in other countries that have highly successful industries, take Germany for example.

Re: I Was a Warehouse Wage Slave: Inside the online-shopping shipping machine

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ultimately, in a free society people need to be allowed the right to cooperate. And we also need to acknowledge that the management in a company invariably enjoys collective bargaining rights, and that basic human decency demands that we allow non-management employees to have similar rights. Which is not to say that all unions are well-behaved. My time as a Teamster was both instructive and discouraging. They had sec…

And we also need to acknowledge that the management in a company invariably enjoys collective bargaining rights... No, it's illegal for corporations to collectively bargain to set workers wages. On the flip side, if employees unionize, it's illegal for the employer to refuse to do business with them.

I think you may have reacted to what you thought he said here, rather than what he said.

The management within a company (considered as a class, rather than as a singular entity "the company") does indeed bargain collectively with the workers of that company. That doesn't imply they collude with the management of other companies.

I'm not sure what the consequences of that are, exactly. It does mean that it's very hard to get teams within the same company to bid on you, because they will collude to avoid that.

So I think you missed his point. I'm not sure that changes the truth of your main point, which is that the government supports employee unions and discourages corporate ones.

Though the illegality of corporations bargaining collectively doesn't mean it doesn't happen, and the illegality of suppressing unions doesn't mean that doesn't happen either. And it's pretty clear who has more leverage in the labor market: corporations. Replacing a worker is annoying but the corporation can usually afford to do without for a few months, whereas losing your job for even a short while can be devastating.

This effect leads to an effective monopsony situation for most employers.

But I've digressed from my main point, which is that while you're correct, I think what he actually said is much more interesting than the boringly wrong point you replied to. What effect DOES it have that the management of a company is united, and the workers generally divided without a union?

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