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Direct air capture: our technology to capture CO₂

climeworks.com

141–150 of 168 posts

Re: Direct air capture: our technology to capture CO₂

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we have to get used to the idea that we’re not going to be less than 600 ppm, even with CO2 capture. I would be surprised if we manage to scale that enough to make a larger difference. But that’s still much better than we’d get at without attempting to remove CO2, so it’s an important goal. The one thing that might change that is very ambitious geo engineering. Which actually is the solution that makes most s…

Yup. We'll need additional cooling strategies. Dr Tao's MEER project is so audacious and crazy, it just might work. https://www.meer.org "Volts podcast: Dr. Ye Tao on a grand scheme to cool the Earth" [2022/06/08] https://www.volts.wtf/p/volts-podcast-dr-ye-tao-on-a-grand "MEER | Mirrors For earth’s Energy Rebalancing with Dr Ye Tao at Harvard University" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZAIIe4X2MU TLDR: We need to s…

I don’t know where the link is at the moment, but I’ve heard it said that it would take about one mountain worth of lime, ground up and spread in the ocean to completely balance out the climate change up to now. I don’t know how much I trust that.

The other one that seemed quite viable is using reflective aerosols like sulfur dioxide over the Antarctic. It would circle around in the polar vortex and not have massive effects outside of the South Pole. But cooling Antarctica would add more ice, slow sea level rise, and the ice itself would reflect heat away from the planet.

Could be problematic for Argentina/Chile, but probably not so much anywhere else. The potential benefits seem huge.

Re: Direct air capture: our technology to capture CO₂

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The earth naturally sequesters carbon on its own, we are simply vastly outpacing that process.So no we don’t need artificial carbon sequestration to hit even preindustrial levels again. Debatable: not only have human activities taken over huge swathes of land which previously sequestered carbon (aka forests), we have been releasing huge amounts of carbon which had been sequestered through processes which basically…

Humans are responsible for about 1% of annual co2 emissions. What they said is spot on: the problem would go away in short order if we ceased all emissions today. That’s obviously not going to happen though, and the original argument is spot on too: the technology is just socialised greenwashing. It’s basically only there to postpone legislature and offload the cost to tax payers while keeping private profits high.

>It’s basically only there to postpone legislature and offload the cost to tax payers while keeping private profits high.

Not just taxpayers, every living thing has to endure the increasing effect of failed climate preservation. As we have seen there's not really enough taxpayers to make a difference, what's more effective would be voters but there's even far less of them since voting is prohibited most places and proven ineffective for this purpose almost everywhere else.

The after-effect is spread so far & wide that's one more reason why it's been so lucrative not to do the most effective emission reduction immediately, since the outset of gassifying as much carbon as industrialists could possibly do, far in excess of what the earth has been able to naturally capture for eons.

In natural science, renewable energy is still far more effectively employed for reducing the need for emissions, secondarily for near-complete source capture.

The only viable energy that can be sensibly devoted to air capture appears to be pure waste energy for the forseeable future. Most probably still better recovered and used for conservation instead.

You realistically can't fool mother nature.

Where are all the CO2-trapping chemicals going to come from without prohibitive amounts of additional emissions unless that chemical process is driven by only pure waste energy as well? Using even renewable energy for any part of direct air capture simply reduces the benefit of that valuable low-cost energy to that of pure waste energy instead.

Thermodynamics is supposed to be top-of-mind here, not mumbo-jumbo. When you read the article one of the first things you see is:

>1. Air is drawn in through a fan located inside the collector. Once sucked in, it passes through a filter located inside the collector which traps the carbon dioxide particles.

Umm, no. Atmospheric CO2 does not exist in particle form at temperatures much above minus 78 degrees C. Who writes this stuff?

>2. When the filter is completely full of CO₂, the collector closes, and the temperature rises to about 100°C — about the same temperature it takes to boil water for a cup of tea!

That's supposed to be exciting? One can safely assume the temperature of significant sized filters will not rise all by itself, boiling water for a cup of tea that big may very likely take enough energy to more than offset what could be accomplished if the energy could be diverted to conservation or emission reduction instead. Not exactly my cup of tea as a chemist experienced with material balance on a large scale.

>3. This causes the filter to release the CO₂ so we can finally collect it.

Now once the "captured" CO2 is released (re-gassified) again in more concentrated form like this, you can expect an additional collection/capture mechanism to be orders of magnitude more physically effective. All signs point to increased effectiveness of capture in proportion to the ppm content of the CO2 present. More or less the same technology needed for direct source capture, so why not just capture at the source instead? Duh.

In the research lab you can purchase trapping chemicals easily within the reach of most budgets whether grants or "investments", and as you scale up you will definitely reach more attractive but false economies of scale until eventually the diminishing returns fall far short of what is needed to make a significant difference to the planet as a whole.

Who's willing to settle for putting research dollars, or worse large amounts of renewable energy into not making much of a difference anyway?

Ha, I think I've found it. That was easy.

Elsewhere on the website, preceded by their partnership with JPMorgan announced a week ago:

>Climeworks published a statement calling for a clear distinction between emissions reductions and carbon dioxide removal

>Reductions and removals have different roles to play

Correct, one conserves resources and the other wastes resources better put to use in further conservation until after massive conservation efforts have fully halted rising atmospheric concentrations.

>1. Limiting the moral hazard It presents a simple way to mitigate the moral hazard coming with carbon dioxide removals, as it makes for greater clarity over the role, foreseen share, and timing of removals alongside accelerated emissions reduction.

Obviously the most pressing hazard they will be addressing together is the moral threat to JPMorgan more so than the climate threat to the rest of the planet. They might not have even invested enough for that limited an approach yet. Looks like there's more to come, maybe whatever it takes, this could be a bigger threat than people realize and might need to be overcome at all costs.

>2. Adding integrity to carbon markets It adds further integrity to carbon markets and climate policy, as it allows for clarity and aligns with best practice concerning "net-zero", where carbon removal credits need to be singled out to counterbalance residual emissions.

The highest integrity will not be achieved as long as there remains a market for carbon in excess of that which can be captured naturally and through waste energy combined. This means reduction in market size for high-energy carbon forms much more so than CO2 whose energy has been fully depleted.

As long as JPMorgan continues to earn more from fossil fuels than they invest in reduction or capture, they can afford for the capture investment to be largely ineffective, maybe even some financial writeoffs could be possible allowing for indefinite maintenance of status-quo. $200 Million sounds like a lot of money because it is, lots of people will prosper financially as the funds are dispersed, but the continued CO2 dispersal will always be much wider than having the same money focused on conservation instead. Also to some large firms, especially in aggregate, $200 Million is just a drop in the bucket.

>3. Responsible deployment It provides a framework wherein carbon removals can be deployed in a responsible and just manner, in addition and complementary to vast and rapid emission reductions and avoidances.

How much have they put into the these rapid emission reductions and avoidances that are the only thing within anyone's reach to make much of a difference in the short term?

>4. A question of scale CDR urgently needs a dedicated framework with opportunities to scale the entire sector, as well as guardrails against a deployment that is incompatible with global sustainability objectives. A dedicated CDR framework allows to tackle these aspects in the most effective way.

Effective for who, the climate itself needs much more scale on emission reduction before capture makes sense.

>In summary, it presents a scientifically sound framework to deliver on the temperature targets set within the Paris Climate Accord.

Not as scientifically sound as it could be.

Just because you can actually capture kilos of CO2 doesn't mean that is the best use of your time, resources, and energy when it comes to climate action overall.

Regulatory capture just may not be enough, how about hedging your bets with a bit of scientist capture too? Who's any good at large-scale hedging around here anyway?

Re: Direct air capture: our technology to capture CO₂

#143
post #104

A similar technology (bed of amines that absorbs CO2 from ambient air) is being tested on the International Space Station, so it's worth reviewing how this stuff breaks: 1. Pipes and bearings clog up or corrode. 2. Trace contaminants irreversibly react with the sorbent material. 3. Stuff in the beds shifts around in unexpected ways, aided by the heat cycling. 4. The problem gets harder the more dilute the gas is. The…

Wow I didn't realize that submarines and the ISS had such a high level of CO2. I feel noticeably worse when CO2 is above 2000ppm in my house. I've always wanted to have an artificial CO2 scrubber for when the windows are closed, but energetically I would probably be better off opening the windows and heating or cooling the air to compensate. Do submariners and astronauts have impacts to their cognitive abilities from…

Whether there are cognitive effects is not clear, but it definitely affects their mood and their sleep. It's a touchy subject since astronauts don't like to publicly complain. Scott Kelly talks about it pretty openly in his book; reading between the lines of tech papers on next-generation life support you get the impression that crews insist levels need to get below 2000 ppm for long-duration missions.

Re: Direct air capture: our technology to capture CO₂

#144
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The earth naturally sequesters carbon on its own, we are simply vastly outpacing that process.So no we don’t need artificial carbon sequestration to hit even preindustrial levels again. Debatable: not only have human activities taken over huge swathes of land which previously sequestered carbon (aka forests), we have been releasing huge amounts of carbon which had been sequestered through processes which basically…

Carbon sequestration down to a tiny fraction of atmospheric carbon has happened all the way back when phytoplankton first showed up causing the Oxygen Holocaust and has been steady since then. Volcanic activity releases an enormous quantity of net carbon over time, but that carbon doesn’t accumulate in the atmosphere. The misconception around the lack of fungi resulting in massive sequestration is that carbon would h…

> Volcanic activity releases an enormous quantity of net carbon over time, but that carbon doesn’t accumulate in the atmosphere.

Volcanic activity releases nearly 2 orders of magnitude less carbon than humanity does. That’s a much easier amount to cycle.

> The misconception around the lack of fungi resulting in massive sequestration is that carbon would have been sequestered either way.

By the process of magic? Because if that’s your hypothesis you need to explain why that magic was overwhelmingly more active during the Carboniferous than at any other epoch.

Re: Direct air capture: our technology to capture CO₂

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have read this analysis several times, and near as I can tell you’re basically saying “if blowing up a stick of dynamite provides x energy, we can just use that same x energy to find all the original bits of that stick and put it back together”.

We're not talking about some kind of very complex macro object. We're talking about converting hydrocarbons -> CO2 + water (or whatever if you care) and reversing that reaction (or similar, since we may want something more stable than hydrocarbons). There are already machines which do this (anything that does photosynthesis). We're just going to play around the edges of making the reaction more efficient and/or the r…

Oil before burning is an incredibly concentrated source of carbon. After burning, it’s less than 0.05% of the makeup of the atmosphere.

If it were so simple, we’d be doing it. Over here in reality, carbon capture remains a difficult and unsolved problem in practice, requiring enormous amounts of energy that is—at present—generally far better put to use replacing carbon-based forms of energy than trying to put the carbon genie back into the oil barrel.

Re: Direct air capture: our technology to capture CO₂

#146
post #3

"Our plants require less land than other techniques. E.g., on a land area of 0.42 acres, our Orca plant can remove 4,000 tons of CO₂ from the air every year, which is almost 1,000 times more effective than trees. The same land would host around 220 trees with an estimated capacity of 22kg each" How much land, in solar panels for example, is required to power this? Also what's the carbon waste that this generates? Is…

1000 kWh/ton (found it on google): 166 kW/ton in a sunny place: 1000 square meters/ton in a sunny place: 4 million square meters = ~1000 acres of PV to power. One unit. Yeah, that’s going to happen. /s “We’re too ashamed of our energy requirements to post them on our page and are well aware they’re dooming this technology until cold fusion comes out” is what I read between the lines on their fluff page.

Too late to edit, but I should qualify this:

They claim 4000 tons per year, I did the math on 4000 tons per day. So ~3-4 acres of PV to power, not 1000 acres.

To completely counteract the 37 billion tons per year produced worldwide, and do it with PV only, assuming desert southwest conditions, would require ~30 million acres of PV. That sounds impossibly high, but is only about the size of the US state of Mississippi. 20% of the land area of Texas, on the El Paso side, would be sufficient to keep pace with the entire world's carbon dioxide emissions.

I remain skeptical that this is the most cost-effective approach, as well as skeptical of its ability to scale, but I apologize for crapping on it at first gloss.

Re: Direct air capture: our technology to capture CO₂

#147
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would take around £12k a year to offset my carbon footprint in the UK, where it is below average. That's a significant part of my take-home salary. I could spend maybe £1-2k a year, especially given the futility of this (I would be one of the 0.00...01% of people doing this, large industries will continue to increase pollution, there is no political will for meaningful measures to reduce emissions). There really i…

> Can some company do this carbon filtering at the source more cost-effectively? If you have some centralized source like that, you should invest on replacing it with something that doesn't emit CO2. It's always a better deal. Carbon capture is for sources where you just can't plug something like this.

The source might have other incentives.

But I agree with the sentiment. I think CO2 offsets could be more effective if done through a fund that funds specific de-carbonisation projects for our industries. For example, they could fund a transition from coal power plants to renewable power plants for power companies, so long as the power companies agree to not increase their carbon emissions and decommission their coal power plants in the process.

Or even a fund that simply subsidizes carbon filters for sources of pollution. Or a lobbying fund that's actually for the good of humanity, not for greed.

There are many creative solutions that could offset a ton of CO2 emissions cheaper. But not the carbon-offset grift we have now. Instead, actual programs with actual reports, auditing, and accountability. If such a fund claims they've recaptured one tonne of CO2, I would expect that there is at least 273kg-heavy pile of carbon or, more realistically, some kilograms of some carbonated substance somewhere.

Re: Direct air capture: our technology to capture CO₂

#148
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Carbon sequestration down to a tiny fraction of atmospheric carbon has happened all the way back when phytoplankton first showed up causing the Oxygen Holocaust and has been steady since then. Volcanic activity releases an enormous quantity of net carbon over time, but that carbon doesn’t accumulate in the atmosphere. The misconception around the lack of fungi resulting in massive sequestration is that carbon would h…

> Volcanic activity releases an enormous quantity of net carbon over time, but that carbon doesn’t accumulate in the atmosphere. Volcanic activity releases nearly 2 orders of magnitude less carbon than humanity does. That’s a much easier amount to cycle. > The misconception around the lack of fungi resulting in massive sequestration is that carbon would have been sequestered either way. By the process of magic? Becau…

> By the process of magic.

No, by other carbon sinks like dead ocean algae.

> Volcanic activity releases nearly 2 orders of magnitude less carbon than humanity does

But they have been around far more than just 2 orders of magnitude as long.

Between the great oxygen event and the emergence of woody plants volcanic processes releasing ~100,000x as much all of humanity across all of human history yet levels didn’t hit 90% CO2. Further woody plants didn’t increase the rate of carbon release by volcanoes so across such long timescales they had zero net effect on total carbon sequestration.

So, across long timescales it was on average 100% of all new carbon before they showed up and it remained 100% of all new carbon afterwards. What changed was where the carbon ended up, the ocean floor sees subduction into the mantle, woody plants stuck around on the surface.

Now, yes on human timescales these things seem slow but net zero + 1,000 years really will have a noticeable impact.

Re: Direct air capture: our technology to capture CO₂

#149

Explain like I’m 5: Why is this better than just growing trees and then cutting them down and burying them so the co2 never gets back into the atmosphere?

Do that but with spent nuclear fuel. A few million trees compressed into a barrel.

Re: Direct air capture: our technology to capture CO₂

#150
post #41

How will this address the public health issues which relate to the burning of fossil fuels? Isn't it just going to make it easier for polluters to pollute more?

It's like "don't have police, the people become careless and it increases temptation to steal from those careless people. Instead, train everybody to always be alert, sleep with an axe, then it will be hard to steal".

Of course we need to address the public health issues related to burning fossil fuel. But in addition to that we should also clean up what we already polluted - even if that seems like an invitation to pollute more, it's not.

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