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Kissinger's killing fields

theintercept.com

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Re: Kissinger's killing fields

#141

Post by jgalt212 »

yamtaddle wrote: post #32
jgalt212 wrote: post #15

[flagged]

Never mind that the whole war was a crime in the first place, I guess. "Sure he was robbing a bank, but that guard pointed a gun at him! That makes the killing justifiable!" Well, it might. But under the circumstances, no, it doesn't.

Fair enough, but that's a separate question from the matter at hand. LBJ escalated Vietnam and then bugged out. Then Kissinger and Nixon had to clean up his mess. Of course, they could have done a better job, but I still posit that taking the war into border lands of Cambodia was not a war crime.

Re: Kissinger's killing fields

#142

Post by jgalt212 »

gnu8 wrote: post #21
jgalt212 wrote: post #15

[flagged]

> enemy combatant You’re thinking of the wrong war criminal. Enemy combatant was a designation invented by the Bush administration to avoid the requirement to treat War on Terror prisoners as would be appropriate to either soldiers or civilians. I don’t think the term existed in the Vietnam era but if it did it wouldn’t apply to NVA/VC forces operating out of Cambodian territory.

Fine. Choose your own words. The point still stands regardless of vocab.

Re: Kissinger's killing fields

#143

Post by mythrwy »

int_19h wrote: post #138
mythrwy wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this case it's hard for me to justify the forcing of republics that are largely Russian to belong to a union that has been turned decidedly anti-Russian including with a coup and NGOs and intelligence activity. There has been a lot of bloodshed, including of civilians before the "war" started and much of it was from the side that is now aggrieved. I understand the economic reasons for not wanting Russia to control…

Which "republics that are largely Russian" are you talking about? If you mean LNR & DNR, then that's just plainly not true. At most they were majority Russophone (depending on how you count "native language"), which is not at all the same thing. You might also want to look up what ethnic Russian citizens in e.g. Moldova or Latvia think about the perspective of Russia "helping" them the way it "helped" ethnic Russians…

I'm afraid you are misinformed on this count.

The citizens of Crimea and Donetsk are largely both ethnically and linguistically Russian. Luhansk it is less, but still around half or more. And they have generally voted largely in favor of Russian leaning candidates. Never mind the declarations of independence after the 2014 coup, the taking up of arms, and the subsequent military resistance to the Ukrainian state.

Re: Kissinger's killing fields

#144

Post by zeteo »

b215826 wrote: post #7

"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer." -- H. Kissinger. It's sad this deplorable human being was given the Nobel Peace Prize.

When you find Kissinger deplorable you basically deplore his honesty. There are plenty of people with that level of power who have done as bad, or worse, but covered it up with silence or PR spin. Don't shoot the messenger.

Re: Kissinger's killing fields

#145

Post by int_19h »

mythrwy wrote: post #143
int_19h wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which "republics that are largely Russian" are you talking about? If you mean LNR & DNR, then that's just plainly not true. At most they were majority Russophone (depending on how you count "native language"), which is not at all the same thing. You might also want to look up what ethnic Russian citizens in e.g. Moldova or Latvia think about the perspective of Russia "helping" them the way it "helped" ethnic Russians…

I'm afraid you are misinformed on this count. The citizens of Crimea and Donetsk are largely both ethnically and linguistically Russian. Luhansk it is less, but still around half or more. And they have generally voted largely in favor of Russian leaning candidates. Never mind the declarations of independence after the 2014 coup, the taking up of arms, and the subsequent military resistance to the Ukrainian state.

You are again conflating the linguistics and the politics with ethnicity. Most residents of Donbass self-identified as Ukrainian before Russia invaded in 2014, even those who predominantly speak Russian and voted for candidates like Yanukovich. And many people who voted for Yanuk back in 2012 are fighting back today. What most of them wanted was more language rights and a more Russian-centric foreign policy, not getting annexed by Russia.

Crimea is a different story, but if we go there we'll also have to talk about things like why Crimean Tatars aren't the majority of the population there anymore.

Re: Kissinger's killing fields

#146

Post by kornhole »

_kbh_ wrote: post #130
kornhole wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The statement that the war was unprovoked is proving to be less durable by the day. https://www.commondreams.org/opinion/the-war-in-ukraine-was-...

> The statement that the war was unprovoked is proving to be less durable by the day. https://www.commondreams.org/opinion/the-war-in-ukraine-was-... This article makes no sense what so ever, and repeats multiple Russian talking points including a often included comment about NATO expansion That comment and supposed promise never happened in the way it is presented, I’d suspect someone who is familiar with this situa…

Do you know anything about Jeffrey Sachs who wrote this article? He is a famous economist and US diplomat who was there when the Soviet Union was breaking up. He saw the agreements and helped their transition.

Re: Kissinger's killing fields

#147

Post by emodendroket »

hayst4ck wrote: post #137
emodendroket wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't read it but the summary here seems useful: https://www.amazon.com/Blood-Telegram-Kissinger-Forgotten-Ge... > Giving an astonishing inside view of how the White House really works in a crisis, The Blood Telegram is an unprecedented chronicle of a pivotal but little-known chapter of the Cold War. Gary J. Bass shows how Nixon and Kissinger supported Pakistan’s military dictatorship as it brutally quashed the r…

I am not sure that shows a level of obvious departure from realpolitik that the person claimed. > Driven not just by Cold War realpolitik The quote even says realpolitik was a major influence.

Right after the part you quoted it says he was also driven by a “bitter personal dislike.”

Re: Kissinger's killing fields

#148

Post by _kbh_ »

kornhole wrote: post #146
_kbh_ wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The statement that the war was unprovoked is proving to be less durable by the day. https://www.commondreams.org/opinion/the-war-in-ukraine-was-... This article makes no sense what so ever, and repeats multiple Russian talking points including a often included comment about NATO expansion That comment and supposed promise never happened in the way it is presented, I’d suspect someone who is familiar with this situa…

Do you know anything about Jeffrey Sachs who wrote this article? He is a famous economist and US diplomat who was there when the Soviet Union was breaking up. He saw the agreements and helped their transition.

> Do you know anything about Jeffrey Sachs who wrote this article? He is a famous economist and US diplomat who was there when the Soviet Union was breaking up. He saw the agreements and helped their transition.

Gorbachev himself said that it never happened in that way.

It’s worrying that someone who is meant to be be a ‘expert’ in this are gets such a key fact wrong, what else is wrong in that article?.

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2014/11/06/did-nato-...

Re: Kissinger's killing fields

#149

Post by kornhole »

_kbh_ wrote: post #148
kornhole wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know anything about Jeffrey Sachs who wrote this article? He is a famous economist and US diplomat who was there when the Soviet Union was breaking up. He saw the agreements and helped their transition.

> Do you know anything about Jeffrey Sachs who wrote this article? He is a famous economist and US diplomat who was there when the Soviet Union was breaking up. He saw the agreements and helped their transition. Gorbachev himself said that it never happened in that way. It’s worrying that someone who is meant to be be a ‘expert’ in this are gets such a key fact wrong, what else is wrong in that article?. https://www.…

It is all described here in greater detail. https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017...

The article you cite from the military think tank says clearly that Gorbachev was given assurances. Military think tanks are not generally valid or good sources for such topics.

Re: Kissinger's killing fields

#150

Post by _kbh_ »

kornhole wrote: post #149
_kbh_ wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you know anything about Jeffrey Sachs who wrote this article? He is a famous economist and US diplomat who was there when the Soviet Union was breaking up. He saw the agreements and helped their transition. Gorbachev himself said that it never happened in that way. It’s worrying that someone who is meant to be be a ‘expert’ in this are gets such a key fact wrong, what else is wrong in that article?. https://www.…

It is all described here in greater detail. https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017... The article you cite from the military think tank says clearly that Gorbachev was given assurances. Military think tanks are not generally valid or good sources for such topics.

Gorbachev himself is the source of my article, that is a primary source.

You are using a secondary source that talks about the primary source to try and discredit the primary source itself.

This doesn’t work and is entirely an underhanded method to try and present non factual information as true.

Once again the fact that Sachs does not know this from a primary source is worrying, what else is he entirely unaware of the reality around the situation?.

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