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Ask HN: How to move away from Gmail

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Re: Ask HN: How to move away from Gmail

#141
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I run my own mailserver on a linode VPS. For my own personal use, it's extremely stable and hasn't been down once for the 4 months I've been using it. I've got fail2ban, logwatch, and logcheck set up to monitor security. The distro is ubuntu server. They have a great guide for setting up postfix and dovecot. Remember, if you aren't paying, you're not a customer, you're the product.

Remember, if you aren't paying, you're not a customer, you're the product. I use Hacker News without (as far as I know) being their product. I pay for Cable TV and yet I'm still their product. It's not as clean-cut as that; you need to read the small letters and always use caution, paid service or not.

In addition to what davyjones says, the users of news.yc are the generators of the content. We make submissions, we comment. In this sense, we are the human resources of news.ycombinator.com. Our output is the product, but we are working the fields for it.

Re: Ask HN: How to move away from Gmail

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remember, if you aren't paying, you're not a customer, you're the product. I use Hacker News without (as far as I know) being their product. I pay for Cable TV and yet I'm still their product. It's not as clean-cut as that; you need to read the small letters and always use caution, paid service or not.

> I use Hacker News without (as far as I know) being their product. Your HN usernames are required on the YCombinator app forms. There is a good chance that they will go through your comment history to get a feel of your personality. I would think that this figures in their "buying" process (they are buying a part of your company after all). If you look at it like that, you are the product.

More likely than that, for the average user, is the fact that every contribution to a free, search engine indexed content site is 'unpaid work' and your content becomes the product that brings in new visitors and interest who search for the startup/web terms we all use.

Of course if you support a site, you'll be happy to help promote it. But what happens when you change your opinion on a matter that becomes important/illegal in the public eye, without the option to remove your now-offending content? Or if you plain just want to stop supporting a site? If people are guarded when making comments because of this risk, is the free service improved or worsened?

Email, picture or opinion, make no bones about it - our content is always product in some way. Content lock-in should rarely be tolerated. I'm surprised it is here, TBH. I happen to greatly appreciate this community, but I in no way agreed to give ownership of my thoughts in return for the right to interact. I'd rather pay with a content export/removal option than hand over the sum total of what little wisdom I have.

Re: Ask HN: How to move away from Gmail

#143
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I use Hacker News without (as far as I know) being their product. Your HN usernames are required on the YCombinator app forms. There is a good chance that they will go through your comment history to get a feel of your personality. I would think that this figures in their "buying" process (they are buying a part of your company after all). If you look at it like that, you are the product.

More likely than that, for the average user, is the fact that every contribution to a free, search engine indexed content site is 'unpaid work' and your content becomes the product that brings in new visitors and interest who search for the startup/web terms we all use. Of course if you support a site, you'll be happy to help promote it. But what happens when you change your opinion on a matter that becomes important…

I find it interesting that the terms of use (licensing and all) are nowhere to be found. Barring implied licenses (I don't know if there is relevant case law), you could probably force them to remove all your comments with a simple DMCA takedown request, since you hold their copyright.

Re: Ask HN: How to move away from Gmail

#144

Apple's iCloud. It's free (up to 5GBs), no ads, and Apple is not in the ads business, hence, they have no use of your personal data (as opposed to Google). I have no idea how good are they in actually protecting your personal data, but I don't recall significant breaches of mobile.me/icloud in the past year.

and Apple is not in the ads business, hence, they have no use of your personal data (as opposed to Google). Aside from the fact that Apple is in the ad business (to limited success and motive thus far, though if the hardware sales profit train slowed down you can guarantee they would grow more interest), even if they weren't they still are incredibly interested in data about their customers. All businesses are intere…

Sorry, I was inaccurate, they do serve ads, but not web ads, and so far I don't have any reliable information stating that Apple scarps the contents of user's personal data to deliver more relevant ads in a way google does.

Re: Ask HN: How to move away from Gmail

#145

Apple's iCloud. It's free (up to 5GBs), no ads, and Apple is not in the ads business, hence, they have no use of your personal data (as opposed to Google). I have no idea how good are they in actually protecting your personal data, but I don't recall significant breaches of mobile.me/icloud in the past year.

> Apple is not in the ads business Really? http://advertising.apple.com/

Yes, sorry, they are. They are not serving web ads though, nor we have a reliable account that they collect information from user's iCloud emails to enhance the relevancy of iAd ads.

Re: Ask HN: How to move away from Gmail

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but for real work the ZOHO web interface is unusable. I'm not the only one who thinks that :) Especially if you are used to Gmail, ZOHO works like it has been written by drunk people. Lavabit seems quite interesting. Anyone going to write a Gmail clone for installation on your own servers finally? I would pay quite a bit for that.

(Disclosure: I am the CEO of Zoho) If you could take a moment to tell us what you find unusable about Zoho Mail, I would assure you we would listen to the critique seriously (and perhaps even do something about it if we agree!). You can also contact me at svembu at zohocorp com and yes we use Zoho Mail intensively in our 1400 person company.

It's good to know you use it yourself :) I use, because of one of my biggest clients, your mail client every day as well.

Already presented my disclaimer: I have been working with Gmail since it's inception. Before that I used all kinds of different clients; all not very nice. The best I used was mutt by far. But that pre-gmail ;) I'm talking about the client, not about Google as cloud mail storage provider, although I really don't think they are evil yet as people seem to think.

I digress.

So this is more a shootout than a face value comparison, although most points, I believe, would annoy me as well without the gmail comparison.

Biggest: speed. Basically that's my biggest issue. ZOHO is slow. Very slow. This is not only the mail app, this is everything (the project management app makes me bang my head against the wall every week I have to enter hours as it takes... yep, hours...). But for the mail app, something I use intensively, this is really quite unworkable. My colleagues at the client all use Outlook with Zoho as they cannot work with the mail client as it is too slow to really work with.

With gmail you click on a message and as by magic, instantly it opens the entire thread. For the current page even when your network is gone. With Zoho you see 'loading' then you wait. And wait. And then it appears. Next mail. Loading... The agony. It's like it was the year 2000 and we just had Ajax.

No internet detection; when internet is down even for a little bit, Zoho mail becomes unusable. It takes forever to notice internet is down and it will be showing 'loading' forever and nothing works even if you are back again. Refresh fixes it, but it seems brittle. Sometimes the CSS breaks, sometimes it just give random error messages when you click on anything. Even though the internet was back for a while already.

This is probably a matter of taste, but screen real estate; when i'm reading a message i'm not interested in the rest of my messages. I want to use most of my available screen for reading that message (like gmail...).

Spam: I get tons of spam; I have ancient email addresses and they attract 100s of 1000s of spam mails per month; in gmail I notice NOTHING of this, really absolutely nothing. In ZOHO the spam filter is almost not noticeable for me, I keep clicking spam until my wrists are locked up.

And then the little things, the ergonomics; it just feels clunky. Not as bad as the project management app (I am no interface designer, but come on :(, but it just feels old and heavy. If Google taught anything for mail client designers; not everything has to look/work like Outlook.

This all makes me say ZOHO web mail is not ready for heavy mail users even though a lot people use it for that; a lot people also use Lotus Notes, that doesn't prove much. I will pay more attention and mail you with my findings because now I only see the big points clearly, but the whole experience is actually just 'not good'.

You did a marvelous job of building this company; my compliments. You have a lot of good products and you managed to build this impressive array of products at an amazing rate. But that has it side effects; polishedness is one of them. I know a lot of people who work with Zoho products every day and for some of them they still cannot find how to do some things ( I won't name my nemesis again here ). Would it hurt to add employee 1401 who is a $400k/year UX guru to overhaul everything? I think it would make all the difference.

Thanks for replying here!

Re: Ask HN: How to move away from Gmail

#147
post #80

I highly recommend Tuffmail. They are awesome. I am a longtime customer: http://www.tuffmail.com/ Edit: It's not free. It costs like 2 dollars a month for the smallest account.

+1 for Tuffmail. Also a long time customer. My favorite feature is the admin interface that lets you manage an unlimited number of aliases and route them to specific folders, e.g., foo@domain1.com => INBOX/foo/, bar@domain2.com => INBOX/bar/. Compare this to Google Apps and Fastmail, which both seem to limit the number of aliases you can create.

Re: Ask HN: How to move away from Gmail

#149
post #3

The reason Gmail is free is because they have ads. I wouldn't expect to find a free and good email service. Here's one that costs some money: http://fastmail.fm/

I've used Fastmail for a couple of years, after I decided to leave gmail. Very happy with it - it's the only web service I pay for.
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