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Coinbase CEO: we're preparing to go to court with the U.S. SEC

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Re: Coinbase CEO: we're preparing to go to court with the U.S. SEC

#141

Post by cheeze »

Sohcahtoa82 wrote: post #91
exabrial wrote: post #56

Can I pay for a Starbucks Double Frap Latte with Apple stock? Probably not, Apple stock is a security, not a currency... I'm sure someone has tried. But can I use Apple Stock as an investment vehicle? Yes. Conversely, can I pay for said surgary drink in DodgeCoin? Well no, you can't, but not for the same reasons. Starbucks doesn't have the facilities to accept DodgeCoin. Can you use it as an investment vehicle? Yes.…

Cryptocurrencies are a currency that people are using as an investment. > Conversely, can I pay for said surgary drink in DodgeCoin? Well no, you can't, but not for the same reasons. Starbucks doesn't have the facilities to accept DodgeCoin I can't pay for my Starbucks in the USA using Euros, but that doesn't make the Euro not a currency. IMO, anybody trying to call a cryptocurrency a security is arguing in bad faith…

This turns into a philosophical argument too quickly though. Some would argue that because of fractional reserve banking, money has no underlying value either.

I disagree with you here, I think a _vast_ majority of people actually purchasing cryptocurrency are doing it as an "investment vehicle", regardless of whether it has inherent value or not. They are treating it very much like a security.

Re: Coinbase CEO: we're preparing to go to court with the U.S. SEC

#142

Post by mrguyorama »

figassis wrote: post #118
VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SEC doesn't give legal advice because they don't make the laws. Want legal advice? Talk to a lawyer. But if your council tells you it's OK to push some boundaries then don't be surprised if you get slapped. And if you don't like getting slapped then you can go to court. Which is exactly what is happening. Seems like the system is working as intended.

You don't need to make the laws to give advice. Are you saying the SEC can't or isn't required? Because not being required does not mean they shouldn't do it.

The vast majority of government workers (including such lowly people as the workers who check applications for food stamps) cannot give advice because humans are fallible and will get it wrong sometimes. The government doesn't want people suing them for that situation, so they just ban all advice basically.

Re: Coinbase CEO: we're preparing to go to court with the U.S. SEC

#143

Post by ac29 »

latchkey wrote: post #108
linuxftw wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're getting downvoted, but you're 100% correct.

> Why would Coinbase think that it could run a securities brokerage, exchange, and clearing house without registering with the SEC? Coinbase is a public company on NASDAQ. They are about as registered with the SEC, as possible. Update: cause I'm getting downvotes. See below. The point that I'm making is that if this company is acting illegally, then why is it still trading?

> cause I'm getting downvotes. See below. The point that I'm making is that if this company is acting illegally, then why is it still trading?

Is your position that no publicly traded company has ever done anything illegal?

Re: Coinbase CEO: we're preparing to go to court with the U.S. SEC

#144

Post by paulddraper »

vkou wrote: post #89
chomp wrote: post #33

There's a few people picking sides here in the comments. Just reminding everybody that it's possible for two sides to be at issue; the SEC can be trying its best to apply its mandate in a world where technology has surpassed the law, and in a void of congressional action, and as a result giving very vague guidance so that it can squeeze its mandate into the crypto realm. And Coinbase can be purposely threading the ne…

Why would the SEC need congressional action to regulate securities (which is what some of the crypto tokens traded on exchanges are)? Why would Coinbase think that it could run a securities brokerage, exchange, and clearing house without registering with the SEC? Just because you've added '... But on the internet' to your business model does not require additional legislature to determine whether or not you are tradi…

Back in 2018, the SEC considered decentralization as an excluding criterion.

https://corpgov.law.harvard.edu/2022/12/06/why-cryptoassets-...

Re: Coinbase CEO: we're preparing to go to court with the U.S. SEC

#146

Post by stonogo »

wslh wrote: post #140
JohnFen wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you may well be -- but I don't know you or your company, so I have no way of knowing. The space is generally so tainted that it's not unreasonable to assume the people in it aren't exactly good until proven otherwise.

Logically speaking you are saying that there is no exist good people in the space. That is a really difficult assertion to probe. I am saying something simpler: there exist good people in the space. Then, you are saying "but I don't know you or your company, so I have no way of knowing.". Well, that is not my job, do your work if you want to change your mind. If you need help I can present you to good people but I as…

> do your work if you want to change your mind

The point is that scammers are so prevalent it's not worth "doing your work." The ROI on vetting every player in a given transaction just isn't high enough to make it worth engaging. We don't have to do all this shit in the actual financial industry because of regulation and insurance. Nobody's presented a compelling reason to re-evolve those protections because blockchain.

And yes, the assertion is about a lot of people. That's why we put locks on our cars and houses instead of vetting everyone in town. You keep arguing about symptoms without addressing causes.

Re: Coinbase CEO: we're preparing to go to court with the U.S. SEC

#147

Post by mthoms »

mrguyorama wrote: post #142
figassis wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need to make the laws to give advice. Are you saying the SEC can't or isn't required? Because not being required does not mean they shouldn't do it.

The vast majority of government workers (including such lowly people as the workers who check applications for food stamps) cannot give advice because humans are fallible and will get it wrong sometimes. The government doesn't want people suing them for that situation, so they just ban all advice basically.

Is that correct? If I am taking a company public, or some other activity that falls under their purview, can I not ask the SEC to provide guidance on the appropriate measures to take?

Yes, of course, a lawyer can provide that. But surely, the SEC should be able to provide advice or point to resources on how to be compliant if needed?

If not, I'm really surprised.

Re: Coinbase CEO: we're preparing to go to court with the U.S. SEC

#148

Post by Volundr »

latchkey wrote: post #120
twic wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The registration under discussion here is registration as a broker-dealer, or an exchange, or whatever, not as a listed company.

Tom Anderson, of myspace? Wow. Hi! Let me direct you to this: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/coinbase-says-just-no-way-to-... The whole point here is that Coinbase is acting in good faith by trying to do things "the right way"... including becoming a public company and trying to register in whatever compliance ways they can. All the way to announcing that they will go to court over all of this. All because their exis…

> If so, then why is it still trading?

Because breaking the law does not cause your stock to be delisted?

I'm not informed enough of the SEC complaint to have much of an opinion on how valid the SEC's or Coinbase's respective cases are, but "I can still by stock" is no evidence that Coinbase isn't breaking the law or violating regulations. Companies do illegal things all the time, delisting the stock and shuttering the company is a resolution of last resort, not first resort.

Re: Coinbase CEO: we're preparing to go to court with the U.S. SEC

#149

Post by latchkey »

ac29 wrote: post #143
latchkey wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why would Coinbase think that it could run a securities brokerage, exchange, and clearing house without registering with the SEC? Coinbase is a public company on NASDAQ. They are about as registered with the SEC, as possible. Update: cause I'm getting downvotes. See below. The point that I'm making is that if this company is acting illegally, then why is it still trading?

> cause I'm getting downvotes. See below. The point that I'm making is that if this company is acting illegally, then why is it still trading? Is your position that no publicly traded company has ever done anything illegal?

Not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that a publicly traded company went through all of the due diligence that it takes to become a publicly traded company (if you've ever been through that, it is pretty intense) and then asked for further clarification on their existing practices, couldn't get that, then got served a wells notice and is now having to go to court to get further clarification. All because the SEC can't or won't give clear guidance on things that they are supposed to be in charge of.

Re: Coinbase CEO: we're preparing to go to court with the U.S. SEC

#150

Post by vkou »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #132
legitster wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think part of the issue here is that the SEC is being decidedly coy. The remedy they are seeking is for the industry to essentially end itself. I think it's fine to say that the SEC is trying it's best to apply a mandate and them seeking guidance from congress are all good ideas, but them beating around the bush and attempting some subterfuge is not a good look for a regulatory agency.

The SEC isn't being coy at all. The current SEC chair has said repeatedly ever since he was appointed that most crypto assets are clearly securities under the existing law, and therefore crypto exchanges must register as securities exchanges. Crypto industry execs would just prefer to be unregulated, and are pretending to be confused about what the SEC wants to trick you into taking their side.

> Crypto industry execs would just prefer to be unregulated, and are pretending to be confused about what the SEC wants to trick you into taking their side.

It's also why they are loudly calling for Congress to weigh in. They know that their business will be nuked from orbit the second the laws on the books will be applied to them, so they are hoping that Congress carves out an exemption for them.

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