The news IMHO is how come she's not yet behind bars?
She conned her husband into another child.
Elizabeth Holmes loses bid to stay out of prison
141–150 of 315 posts
Re: Elizabeth Holmes loses bid to stay out of prison
#142Earlier quoted context omitted.
In 2019 Musk publicly stated Model 3's would support robotic taxi functionality in 2020.
> 2019 Musk publicly stated Model 3's would support robotic taxi functionality in 2020 No evidence these forecasts were made in bad faith. Delusion isn’t criminal. It’s mis-selling in the here and now, in absolute terms, in a way that causes damage, that is problematic.
I'm sure there is a negligence or recklessness standard that an overzealous prosecutor can apply here. Being willfully stupid about your own company and the products they produce in order to repeatedly get away with delusional over-promising could be construed that way, as could creating a culture that suppresses internal doubt about your company's capabilities.
Re: Elizabeth Holmes loses bid to stay out of prison
#143Reading this entire story, it baffles me that as of today I can still add a "Full Self-Driving Capability" option when ordering a Tesla.
This is a dumb comment. Leading with stretched claims that are then clarified in the fine print is different than outright lying. No one who did a modicum of due diligence bought a Tesla thinking they were getting a completely self-driving car that requires no human input.
There’s a reason why we have specific false and deceptive advertising laws. Most of it doesn’t rise to the level of fraud. Fraud requires a lie and reasonable/justifiable detrimental reliance on that lie.
Re: Elizabeth Holmes loses bid to stay out of prison
#144Earlier quoted context omitted.
> have 0% faith the current hardware will ever run a real level 5 solution Me either! But that’s not fraud. It’s delusion. We don’t criminalise it because the difference between genius and crazy is often only apparent ex post facto .
Selling a product that does X that neither currently does X nor can in the future do X seems like fraud to me.
> nor can in the future do X
We don’t know this. That’s the point.
Re: Elizabeth Holmes loses bid to stay out of prison
#145Earlier quoted context omitted.
$TSLA made enough people rich I suppose. I saw some gains myself although not on a large scale. Still don’t like the guy but there’s the old adage “for my friends everything, for my enemies the law”. If $TSLA plummets a crazy amount the tables may turn
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There are at least four replies at this moment missing the point entirely, it's incredible how knee-jerk these are to defend Tesla against a defense of Tesla.
Re: Elizabeth Holmes loses bid to stay out of prison
#146One of the questions I have about any fraudster is where they fall on the goof/sociopath spectrum. It's surprisingly easy to start a Ponzi scheme by accident, after all. You just offer investors good returns (legal), be too optimistic about how it will go (legal), and then give them the promised returns anyhow by using other investor money (very illegal). I suspect a number of companies even get away with it, as they…
> then give them the promised returns anyhow by using other investor money (very illegal)
Actually, that is normal accepted business in many cases, and not illegal except in specific circumstances.
Classic example is commercial real estate bonds, where they roll over (the new bonds pay the old bond holders).
Or an IPO looks like a Ponzi, but usually isn't.
Re: Elizabeth Holmes loses bid to stay out of prison
#147Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I'm an FSD Beta user... 1000s of other Beta testers Ah, so the hundreds of thousands or millions who bought FSD years ago should be happy that a few thousand of you get to test out a system with your own lives. Great. Edit: Don't bother responding if you're a Tesla or Elon fanboy/fangirl. I'm not interested in being insulted any longer by you folks.
There are 400,000+ Beta users currently (US and Canada). You are being fooled by the headlines. The people in the EU have a legitimate beef (not being able to use the functionality). "test a system with our own lives" is silly hyperbole and you know it.
That's true.
You're testing it with the lives of others on the road or walking beside it too.
Re: Elizabeth Holmes loses bid to stay out of prison
#148Earlier quoted context omitted.
In 2019 Musk publicly stated Model 3's would support robotic taxi functionality in 2020.
> 2019 Musk publicly stated Model 3's would support robotic taxi functionality in 2020 No evidence these forecasts were made in bad faith. Delusion isn’t criminal. It’s mis-selling in the here and now, in absolute terms, in a way that causes damage, that is problematic.
When you sell a capability you are making a commitment. The fact that you deluded yourself about it does not get you off the hook. You are still responsible for your claims. Or should be.
Re: Elizabeth Holmes loses bid to stay out of prison
#149Earlier quoted context omitted.
I have 0% faith the current hardware will ever run a real level 5 solution. It will require better processors, better cameras, LiDAR, more RAM, something.
> have 0% faith the current hardware will ever run a real level 5 solution Me either! But that’s not fraud. It’s delusion. We don’t criminalise it because the difference between genius and crazy is often only apparent ex post facto .
Is the key difference that no one can prove the current hardware will be unable to reach a level 5 solution?
Taken to the (more) absurd we wouldn’t have this issue if the claim was the cars could fly, be boats, or time travel. People wouldn’t buy the “capability” either.
This is a fascinating murky area and seems there’s no market solution beyond caveat emptor
Re: Elizabeth Holmes loses bid to stay out of prison
#150Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I'm an FSD Beta user... 1000s of other Beta testers Ah, so the hundreds of thousands or millions who bought FSD years ago should be happy that a few thousand of you get to test out a system with your own lives. Great. Edit: Don't bother responding if you're a Tesla or Elon fanboy/fangirl. I'm not interested in being insulted any longer by you folks.
There are 400,000+ Beta users currently (US and Canada). You are being fooled by the headlines. The people in the EU have a legitimate beef (not being able to use the functionality). "test a system with our own lives" is silly hyperbole and you know it.
"test a system with our own lives" is actually an understatement; FSD Beta is being tested on other peoples' lives without their consent. Other drivers, pedestrians, etc.