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We need to tell people ChatGPT will lie to them, not debate linguistics

simonwillison.net

141–150 of 485 posts

Re: We need to tell people ChatGPT will lie to them, not debate linguistics

#141
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is that ChatGPT (&co.) was not designed as, and is not intended to be, any sort of expert system, or knowledge representation system. The fact that it does as well as it does anyway is pretty amazing. But even so -- as you said, it's still dealing chiefly with the statistical probability of words/tokens, not with facts and truths. I really don't "trust" it in any meaningful way, even if it already ha…

So do you find it alarming that people are trying to give such a system “agency” ?

What is alarming about it?

Re: We need to tell people ChatGPT will lie to them, not debate linguistics

#142
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure that's the case. After all, most people lie to you for a reason. GPT isn't purposely trying to mislead you for its own gain; in fact that's part of the reason that our normal "lie detectors" completely fail: there's absolutely nothing to gain from making up (say) a plausible sounding scientific reference; so why would we suspect GPT of doing so?

You're still focused on accurately describing the category of falsehood ChatGPT produces. You're missing the point. The point is that people don't even understand that ChatGPT produces falsehoods significantly enough that every statement it produces must be first determined about its truthfulness. To describe it as a liar effectively explains that understanding without any technical knowledge.

That's exactly the point I've been trying to make, thanks for putting it in such clear terms.

Re: We need to tell people ChatGPT will lie to them, not debate linguistics

#143

The part that's concerning about ChatGPT is that a computer program that is "confidently wrong" is basically indistinguishable from what dumb people think smart people are like. This means people are going to believe ChatGPT's lies unless they are repeatedly told not to trust it just like they believe the lies of individuals whose intelligence is roughly equivalent to ChatGPT's. Based on my understanding of the appro…

This (among other things) is why OpenAI releasing it to the general public without considering the effects was irresponsible, IMO.

Re: We need to tell people ChatGPT will lie to them, not debate linguistics

#144
post #52

I think characterisation of LLMs as lying is reasonable because although the intent isn't there to misrepresent the truth in answering the specific query, the intent is absolutely there in how the network is trained. The training algorithm is designed to create the most plausible text possible - decoupled from the truthfulness of the output. In a lot of cases (indeed most cases) the easiest way to make the text plaus…

"The training algorithm is designed to create the most plausible text possible" That may be how they're trained, but these things seem to have emergent behavior.

I'm not sure why you call it "emergent" behavior. Instead, my take away is that much of what we think of as cognition is just really complicated pattern matching and probabilistic transformations (i.e. mechanical processes).

Re: We need to tell people ChatGPT will lie to them, not debate linguistics

#145

I'm annoyed by the destruction of language for effect. "The machines are lying to us". No they're not. "Cars are literally murdering us", no they're not, dying in a car accident is tragic, but it's neither murder, nor is the car doing it to you. Yes, this will bring more attention to your case. But it will come with a cost: do it often enough and "lying" will be equivalent in meaning with "information was not correct…

This is a good argument.

Re: We need to tell people ChatGPT will lie to them, not debate linguistics

#146

The part that's concerning about ChatGPT is that a computer program that is "confidently wrong" is basically indistinguishable from what dumb people think smart people are like. This means people are going to believe ChatGPT's lies unless they are repeatedly told not to trust it just like they believe the lies of individuals whose intelligence is roughly equivalent to ChatGPT's. Based on my understanding of the appro…

> The part that's concerning about ChatGPT is that a computer program that is "confidently wrong" is basically indistinguishable from what dumb people think smart people are like.

I don't know, the program does what it is engineered to do pretty well, which is, generate text that is representative of its training data following on from input tokens. It can't reason, it can't be confident, it can't determine fact.

When you interpret it for what it is, it is not confidently wrong, it just generated what it thinks is most likely based on the input tokens. Sometimes, if the input tokens contain some counter-argument the model will generate text that would usually occur if an claim was refuted, but again, this is not based on reason, or fact, or logic.

ChatGPT is not lying to people, it can't lie, at least not in the sense of "to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive". ChatGPT has no intent. It can generate text that is not in accordance with fact and is not derivable by reason from its training data, but why would you expect that from it?

> Based on my understanding of the approach behind ChatGPT, it is probably very close to a local maximum in terms of intelligence so we don't have to worry about the fearmongering spread by the "AI safety" people any time soon if AI research continues to follow this paradigm.

I agree here, I think you can only get so far with a language model, maybe if we get a couple orders of mangitude more parameters it magically becomes AGI, but I somehow don't quite feel it, I think there is more to human intelligence than a LLM, way more.

Of course, that is coming, but that would not be this paradigm, which is basically trying to overextend LLM.

LLMs are great, they are useful, but if you want a model that reasons, you will likely have to train it for that, or possibly more likely, combine ML with something symbolic reasoning.

Re: We need to tell people ChatGPT will lie to them, not debate linguistics

#147

People need to be told that ChatGPT can't lie. Or rather, it lies in the same way that your phone "lies" when it autocorrects "How's your day?" to "How's your dad?" that you sent to your friend two days after his dad passed away. They need to be told that ChatGPT is a search engine with advanced autocomplete. If they understood this, they'd probably find that it's actually useful for some things, and they can also av…

What are your thoughts on something like this [0], where ChatGPT is accused of delivering allegations of impropriety or criminal behavior citing seemingly non existent sources? https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2023/04/05/chatgpt...

Bleating about anti-conservative bias gets wapo to correct a mistake it never made.

Asking for examples before you know it’s a problem is sus. But phrasing questions to lead to an answer is a human lawyer skill.

Re: We need to tell people ChatGPT will lie to them, not debate linguistics

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So do you find it alarming that people are trying to give such a system “agency” ?

I do. I think the anthropomorphic language that people use to describe these systems is inaccurate and misleading. An Australian mayor has claimed that ChatGPT "defamed" him. The title of this article says that we should teach people that text generation tools "lie". Other articles suggest that ChatGPT "knows" things. It is extremely interesting to me how much milage can be gotten out of an LLM by observing patterns…

I also disagree about some of the anthropomorphism (e.g. it doesn't intentionally "lie") but I'd say it passes the "duck test"[0] for knowing things and intelligence, to some degree. I would even go as far to say it has opinions although it seems OpenAI has gone out of their way to limit answers that could be interpreted as opinions.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_test

Re: We need to tell people ChatGPT will lie to them, not debate linguistics

#149
post #84

Large language models have read everything, and they don't know anything. They are excellent imitators, being able to clone the style and contents of any subject or source you ask for. When you prompt them, they will uncritically generate a text that combines the relevant topics in creative ways, without the least understanding of their meaning. Their original training causes them to memorize lots of concepts , both…

Can you prove that it actually "doesn't know anything"? What do you mean by that? Being critical does not make you educated on the subject. There are so many comments like this, yet never provide any useful information. Saying there's no value in something, as everyone seems to try to do regarding LLMs, should come with more novel insights than parroting this same idea along with every single person on HN.

That's easy: ask it anything, then "correct" it with some outrageous nonsense. It will apologize (as if to express regret), and say you're correct, and now the conversation is poisoned with whatever nonsense you fed it. All form and zero substance.

We fall for it because normally the use of language is an expression of something, with ChatGPT language is just that, language, with no meaning. To me that proves knowing and reasoning happens on a deeper, more symbolic level and language is an expression of that, as are other things.

Re: We need to tell people ChatGPT will lie to them, not debate linguistics

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

How so? GPT LLM algorithms use a probabilistic language model to generate text. It is trained on a large corpus of text data, and it estimates the probability distribution of the next word given the previous words in the sequence. The algorithm tokenizes the input into a sequence of tokens and then generates the next token(s) in the sequence based on the probabilities learned during training. These probabilities are…

> This is not remotely like what human brains do. Your ideas cohere from network connections between the neurons in your brain, and then you come up with words to match your idea, not your previous words or the frequency that the words appear in your brain.

I'm pretty confident that that isn't all the human brain does, but we certainly do that in many situations. Lots of daily conversation seems scripted to me. Join a Zoom call early on a Monday morning:

  Person 1: Good Morning!
  Person 2: Good Morning!
  Person 3: Did anyone do anything interesting this weekend?
  Person 1: Nah, just the usual chores around the house.
  etc.
All sorts of daily interactions follow scripts. Start and end of a phone call, random greetings or acknowledgements on the street, interactions with a cashier at a store. Warm up questions during an job interview...
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