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Bob Lee, former CTO of Square, has died after being stabbed in San Francisco

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Re: Bob Lee, former CTO of Square, has died after being stabbed in San Francisco

#141

Can someone very briefly wrap this whole "SF is broken"-situation up for somebody from Europe? I only ever read that it's "because of the policies" and there are lots of rather disturbing videos about SF making its rounds on YouTube. But what exactly happened? Did they just remove all the police? Did they gave out free drugs to everybody? I'm not interested in blaming political parties, I just want to get a quick gra…

I'm from Europe too, but I've following what's been happening, so here's a very detached account of what happened.

First, it's not a single reason but several going hand in hand. The main one, as far as I understand, is the sky-rocketing price of housing, coupled with little social safety net for which the US is well-known, produced a lot of homelessness that has not been addressed and ballooned. With that also came crime and drug abuse (that's not new: I've been there 10 years ago and was shocked by the amount of homeless people in the streets, and I live in Paris, which has its fair share of homeless people, so that's saying something)

The second main one is that racism, which has always been a thing, especially in the police force, produced some very high profile events (George Floyd) and high backlash against the police, perceived as racist and not being on the side of "the people".

There has been a big "defund the police", which resulted in less policing, police force demoralization, a lot of officers quitting. Coupled with the previous issue, a lot of small crimes happened, mainly perpetuated by poor people. It's important to note that due to the US history, being poor correlate strongly with skin color.

I don't really know if it's the fact that the people appearing the court were black and it was deemed racist or if the court were overloaded (probably an unhealthy mix of both), but at some point, shoplifting under a certain amount (was it $950? Somewhere in the $1000 ballpark) was changed from a felony to a misdemeanor. In practice, that means you could do that without fear of retribution, which predictably had awful results, and might be the disturbing videos you are talking about.

There you go, hopefully I didn't misrepresent the situation and didn't forget any other important factor, though I'm sure someone will correct me if I did.

Re: Bob Lee, former CTO of Square, has died after being stabbed in San Francisco

#142

Can someone very briefly wrap this whole "SF is broken"-situation up for somebody from Europe? I only ever read that it's "because of the policies" and there are lots of rather disturbing videos about SF making its rounds on YouTube. But what exactly happened? Did they just remove all the police? Did they gave out free drugs to everybody? I'm not interested in blaming political parties, I just want to get a quick gra…

SF homicide rate is close to the national average.

7.1 per 100,000.[1] This is a large increase in recent years.

Just in 2014, the national average was 4.5 per 100,000.

And these numbers are several times that of large European cities.

Still, this is not as bad as Oakland, with a homicide rate several times that.

[1] https://abc7news.com/feature/san-francisco-bay-area-safety-t...

[2] https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the-u.s.-...

Re: Bob Lee, former CTO of Square, has died after being stabbed in San Francisco

#143

Can someone very briefly wrap this whole "SF is broken"-situation up for somebody from Europe? I only ever read that it's "because of the policies" and there are lots of rather disturbing videos about SF making its rounds on YouTube. But what exactly happened? Did they just remove all the police? Did they gave out free drugs to everybody? I'm not interested in blaming political parties, I just want to get a quick gra…

The truth is we are letting antisocial criminal trash walk freely around downtown and terrorize the local population. I think a lot of people live in their nice neighborhood bubble and have never stepped foot in FiDi or SOMA.

Since I moved here, I have sen people break into cars (numerous times), fill suitcases with products from Target and Walgreens and leave without paying, casually smoke meth in a crowded bus, empty their bladder and bowels in the middle of the sidewalk, etc. all of this brazenly and in broad daylight. In other cities, this type of behavior usually earns you at least a good beating and a night in jail. The negative feedback is very important for conditioning antisocial people to behave in a civilized community, but for some reason, SF has decided to not bother with it.

Some other comments conflate this with the "homeless problem". This is not a "homeless problem". Homeless people living in a shelter or pitching a tent under a bridge are not the problem in SF. Criminal antisocial nutcases getting no consequences for their actions are the problem.

Re: Bob Lee, former CTO of Square, has died after being stabbed in San Francisco

#144

Can someone very briefly wrap this whole "SF is broken"-situation up for somebody from Europe? I only ever read that it's "because of the policies" and there are lots of rather disturbing videos about SF making its rounds on YouTube. But what exactly happened? Did they just remove all the police? Did they gave out free drugs to everybody? I'm not interested in blaming political parties, I just want to get a quick gra…

I will do my best, but it's important for people to know that I mean this as respectfully as I can. It's my honest assessment, and I will try to make few-to-no normative claims.

I tend to refer to what's happening in SF as SF-Stockholm syndrome (I do not mean this as disrespectful, only that I don't know any other way to describe the normalization of what happens here). I grew up in Texas, spent time on the East Coast, with a reasonable stint in NYC, and spent just over a year Scotland. I really have never seen the openness and acceptance of severe substance abuse like I have on the West Coast of the United States (not just in SF).

Portland, SF, LA, Oakland, Berkeley, pretty much every major city here, there are areas of the city where serious drug use, and some crime, is effectively just tolerated. SF is particularly unique, because, by a wide margin, it's the smallest in area and most walkable. Other cities tend to be automobile-centric, so non-organized crime tends to stay in small areas of the city (though, from my understanding, this is changing in Portland for the worse).

This is combine with a fairly strong anti-police culture. I don't know the veracity or history, but people here, even perfectly law abiding people, tend to think the police forces are generally corrupt-and-racist, or have a history of corruption and racism. I'm regularly shock that everyone here seems to be disgusted with the police, but nearly nobody has any intention or desire to reform, normalize, or even overhaul the institution. Many seem to see very idea of police as just a bad thing.

Combine this with the out-of-control opiate epidemic, and what this seems to have created is a pretty nuts, but not actually abnormally dangerous, environment in San Francisco in particular. There is little enforcement of any laws, except parking enforcement. When my friends from Germany visited, they were very curious about this "opiate and crime thing" after reading about book about Fentanyl, so as part of their visit, I showed them the open drug markets around midnight at UN Plaza, at Civic Center BART station. They were horrified. It's hard to describe the scene of crowds of people, many just shuffling around, obviously high, often with pretty obvious other complications from living in squalor.

I call it Stockholm Syndrome because people have genuinely convinced themselves that this is normal. People here legitimately believe that leaving anything at all in your car, even small things, in any major city in America, will likely lead to a break in. Obviously this is incredibly untrue, and SF is an outlier in theft (to the point that the stats are laughably inaccurate because nobody even reports car break-ins to the police anymore), but people have acclimated to the culture, and just assume it's normal, if they don't leave the region on a regular basis.

Ironically, the city is actually fairly safe with regards to violent crime. Not especially safe, but the homicide figures show that things aren't "out of control" in the violent crime aspect.

The thing that's shocking is how in-your-face it all is. The signs of severe substance abuse, are ever-present in a shockingly large amount of the commercial districts of the city (though most of the city is perfectly safe, quite and residential). The city does absolutely nothing about it. They do not mandate addiction treatment, because, for the most part, the people with substance abuse issues never see a court room. Primarily, because the court system cannot handle the case load. My roommate is a Public Defender, so I'm acutely aware of the backlog of cases that are genuinely violent crime. Not that it matters, because in election-after-election, the candidates tend to be pretty much on the same page that nothing really will be done. Again, much of the populous has a very strong distaste for any policing action. I honestly believe that most people here legitimately don't like the idea of forcing people into treatment if they don't want it.

It is incredibly complex, and I've only just scratched the surface of the nuance in what's happening here. There are housing issues, inequality issues, nativist issues, agency issues, and even a bizarre idealization poverty and squalor. To cover everything would be more appropriate as an hour-long discussion over drinks at a bar where you can see what's actually happening with your own eyes, because I think most Europeans would be quite speechless at it all.

This tragedy did not happen in a bad part of town, and I honestly walk through worse areas at similar hours regularly, and it's generally fine.

Re: Bob Lee, former CTO of Square, has died after being stabbed in San Francisco

#146
post #141

Can someone very briefly wrap this whole "SF is broken"-situation up for somebody from Europe? I only ever read that it's "because of the policies" and there are lots of rather disturbing videos about SF making its rounds on YouTube. But what exactly happened? Did they just remove all the police? Did they gave out free drugs to everybody? I'm not interested in blaming political parties, I just want to get a quick gra…

I'm from Europe too, but I've following what's been happening, so here's a very detached account of what happened. First, it's not a single reason but several going hand in hand. The main one, as far as I understand, is the sky-rocketing price of housing, coupled with little social safety net for which the US is well-known, produced a lot of homelessness that has not been addressed and ballooned. With that also came…

  I don't really know if it's the fact that the people appearing the court
  were black and it was deemed racist or if the court were overloaded (probably
  an unhealthy mix of both), but at some point, shoplifting under a certain
  amount (was it $950? Somewhere in the $1000 ballpark) was changed from a felony
  to a misdemeanor. In practice, that means you could do that without fear of
  retribution, which predictably had awful results, and might be the disturbing
  videos you are talking about.
In most states the felony threshold gets adjusted periodically if for no other reason than to keep up with inflation. Texas bumped theirs to $2,500 and Alabama to $1,500 back in 2015.

Re: Bob Lee, former CTO of Square, has died after being stabbed in San Francisco

#147
post #143

Can someone very briefly wrap this whole "SF is broken"-situation up for somebody from Europe? I only ever read that it's "because of the policies" and there are lots of rather disturbing videos about SF making its rounds on YouTube. But what exactly happened? Did they just remove all the police? Did they gave out free drugs to everybody? I'm not interested in blaming political parties, I just want to get a quick gra…

The truth is we are letting antisocial criminal trash walk freely around downtown and terrorize the local population. I think a lot of people live in their nice neighborhood bubble and have never stepped foot in FiDi or SOMA. Since I moved here, I have sen people break into cars (numerous times), fill suitcases with products from Target and Walgreens and leave without paying, casually smoke meth in a crowded bus, emp…

> at least a good beating

In what cities does any of this earn you a good beating?

Re: Bob Lee, former CTO of Square, has died after being stabbed in San Francisco

#148
post #141

Can someone very briefly wrap this whole "SF is broken"-situation up for somebody from Europe? I only ever read that it's "because of the policies" and there are lots of rather disturbing videos about SF making its rounds on YouTube. But what exactly happened? Did they just remove all the police? Did they gave out free drugs to everybody? I'm not interested in blaming political parties, I just want to get a quick gra…

I'm from Europe too, but I've following what's been happening, so here's a very detached account of what happened. First, it's not a single reason but several going hand in hand. The main one, as far as I understand, is the sky-rocketing price of housing, coupled with little social safety net for which the US is well-known, produced a lot of homelessness that has not been addressed and ballooned. With that also came…

[flagged]

Re: Bob Lee, former CTO of Square, has died after being stabbed in San Francisco

#149
post #141

Can someone very briefly wrap this whole "SF is broken"-situation up for somebody from Europe? I only ever read that it's "because of the policies" and there are lots of rather disturbing videos about SF making its rounds on YouTube. But what exactly happened? Did they just remove all the police? Did they gave out free drugs to everybody? I'm not interested in blaming political parties, I just want to get a quick gra…

I'm from Europe too, but I've following what's been happening, so here's a very detached account of what happened. First, it's not a single reason but several going hand in hand. The main one, as far as I understand, is the sky-rocketing price of housing, coupled with little social safety net for which the US is well-known, produced a lot of homelessness that has not been addressed and ballooned. With that also came…

I thought we were gonna avoid politics

I've lived in SF PDX SEA and I've lived in Europe

In the past decade, US cities enjoyed a renaissance / gentrification in otherwise formerly decaying downtown urban areas, mostly led by tech companies tired of car culture and suburbia

Now that money flows are slowing, these areas are reverting back unfortunately

IMO most US tech startups would kill to be in a cheap sunny European city say along the Adriatic coast but are hampered by funding regs etc

Re: Bob Lee, former CTO of Square, has died after being stabbed in San Francisco

#150

Funny how people try so hard to show/prove/argue that SF is safe. If it was, these discussions wouldn’t exist. You won’t see these threads about Zurich, just saying.

It's OOM worse in SF than any other city I've spent time in, including Zurich.

For comparison, I've spent maybe a month in SF put together over the last few years:

- In 30 days, I met more than 30 mentally ill people in SF. 40 Years everywhere else, I saw one old lady with dementia once in Copenhagen. And a few randoms few and far between in London. By mentally ill I mean the kind of ill where you're shouting nonsense in public.

- Then there's the guy who is aggressively threatening his imaginary friends. Seems to be a SF creature, doesn't seem drunk or stoned, just nuts. Even these guys outnumber the drunk/stoned nutters I've met in Europe in the last few years. I ran into them often, trying to stay away since you know...

- SF seemed like you were never more than 2 minutes away from someone with lower level mental health problems. I sat down in a Starbucks and realised I was hearing Cantonese from somewhere. Turned around it was some middle aged woman swearing while having a conversation with herself. But she wasn't in the category above.

- Never saw any crime but I've seen the shoplifting videos. That would not pass in Zurich. Probably not most places though I wonder if Metropolitan Police would get their act together.

- Extreme distress behavior like stealing food, never saw it anywhere else. In SF someone ran in to grab my leftovers when I was done eating. Not the same as a safety issue, but you can see how people might feel unsafe with that kind of thing happening.

- Generally an extreme level of inequality in living conditions might make people feel unsafe. I mean there were people on the street with no shoes, walking around Nordstrom department store in town centre.

Of course it's a long way between safety stats and feeling safe. I would guess if you're living in Sweden right now, you are safe despite the rocketing murder rate, providing you're not involved in organised crime. You might not feel that way and yes there's going to be innocents caught up with it. But safe means a lot of things.

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