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Major shake-up coming for Fermilab, the troubled U.S. particle physics center

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Re: Major shake-up coming for Fermilab, the troubled U.S. particle physics center

#141

Post by luckylion »

wolverine876 wrote: post #140
luckylion wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's a good reason to have anti-corruption measures and bring down the hammer hard on everyone in the administration that tries to circumvent them, but I do believe that government is just too inefficient when it comes to doing things. I'd rather risk that every tenth contract is fraudulent than have every contract cost twice as much with the government doing it themselves. There's just zero incentive for…

> I'd rather risk that every tenth contract is fraudulent than have every contract cost twice as much with the government doing it themselves. If you create the numbers, you'll reach your expected conclusion. > There's just zero incentive for government employees to work quickly and efficiently. Stop demonizing people. Just talk to some government employees. The article talks about how management works at DOE labs.

I'm not demonizing anyone, I'm talking about incentives.

And I've come to my understanding of how they work on government employees by talking to, and working with (as a consultant), government employees. There's a certain bureaucratic counterproductivity that I've only ever encountered in government employees.

If that doesn't match your experience and government in your area is highly efficient and you wouldn't change a thing, that's great and I envy you, but it's not my experience at all.

Re: Major shake-up coming for Fermilab, the troubled U.S. particle physics center

#142

Post by gopher_space »

dylan604 wrote: post #100
unethical_ban wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I last worked in person in IT, a few members of my team would get up at 2pm to get coffee and chat about work and life. Different people went in the mornings. It was really useful to team-build and feel decent about work. People who say "I don't have friends at work" with pride are completely foreign to me. I don't understand how people are supposed to have any joy at work, or get over comms barriers, when there…

I can have lunch and water cooler chat friends at work, but rarely do they turn into invite over to bbq on the weekend friends. There's a big difference. You can be friendly, but when something happens at work and one of you no longer works there...things get weird. Those weekend bbqs that you had with work friends no longer happen, or they keep going for a bit, but conversations are awkward since the still employed…

Isn't this just another downside to stacked ranking? Plenty of other professions allow you to make friends.

Re: Major shake-up coming for Fermilab, the troubled U.S. particle physics center

#143

Post by wolverine876 »

luckylion wrote: post #141
wolverine876 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd rather risk that every tenth contract is fraudulent than have every contract cost twice as much with the government doing it themselves. If you create the numbers, you'll reach your expected conclusion. > There's just zero incentive for government employees to work quickly and efficiently. Stop demonizing people. Just talk to some government employees. The article talks about how management works at DOE labs.

I'm not demonizing anyone, I'm talking about incentives. And I've come to my understanding of how they work on government employees by talking to, and working with (as a consultant), government employees. There's a certain bureaucratic counterproductivity that I've only ever encountered in government employees. If that doesn't match your experience and government in your area is highly efficient and you wouldn't chan…

> government in your area is highly efficient and you wouldn't change a thing

More strawperson hyberbole. Hyberbole expresses only emotion; it adds nothing and gives us nothing to talk about on the merits.

So, you're feeling frustrated? Angry?

Re: Major shake-up coming for Fermilab, the troubled U.S. particle physics center

#144

Post by gopher_space »

peterangular wrote: post #102
unethical_ban wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I last worked in person in IT, a few members of my team would get up at 2pm to get coffee and chat about work and life. Different people went in the mornings. It was really useful to team-build and feel decent about work. People who say "I don't have friends at work" with pride are completely foreign to me. I don't understand how people are supposed to have any joy at work, or get over comms barriers, when there…

Just responding to some of your points - sorry if this comes off as abrasive. > a few members of my team would get up at 2pm to get coffee and chat about work and life If I stopped programming arbitrarily at 2:00pm when my hours are 9:00am-5:00pm I expect to be let go (unless I'm taking this as my lunch period). Especially to socialize over coffee. As a production-level IC I just can't do that ethically, and perhaps…

> If I stopped programming arbitrarily at 2:00pm when my hours are 9:00am-5:00pm I expect to be let go (unless I'm taking this as my lunch period). Especially to socialize over coffee. As a production-level IC I just can't do that ethically [...]

Just an aside, but at a senior level walking around and bullshitting with people is where a lot of the work gets done. At some point you'll get involved with a project that's so interesting you'll never really stop thinking about it, and then your idea of what someone looks like when they're "working" will change.

Re: Major shake-up coming for Fermilab, the troubled U.S. particle physics center

#145

Post by luckylion »

wolverine876 wrote: post #143
luckylion wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not demonizing anyone, I'm talking about incentives. And I've come to my understanding of how they work on government employees by talking to, and working with (as a consultant), government employees. There's a certain bureaucratic counterproductivity that I've only ever encountered in government employees. If that doesn't match your experience and government in your area is highly efficient and you wouldn't chan…

> government in your area is highly efficient and you wouldn't change a thing More strawperson hyberbole. Hyberbole expresses only emotion; it adds nothing and gives us nothing to talk about on the merits. So, you're feeling frustrated? Angry?

Annoyed, I'd say, but it's okay. You want to talk about something else than what I was talking about. I cannot follow you there.

Re: Major shake-up coming for Fermilab, the troubled U.S. particle physics center

#148

Post by peterangular »

gopher_space wrote: post #144
peterangular wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just responding to some of your points - sorry if this comes off as abrasive. > a few members of my team would get up at 2pm to get coffee and chat about work and life If I stopped programming arbitrarily at 2:00pm when my hours are 9:00am-5:00pm I expect to be let go (unless I'm taking this as my lunch period). Especially to socialize over coffee. As a production-level IC I just can't do that ethically, and perhaps…

> If I stopped programming arbitrarily at 2:00pm when my hours are 9:00am-5:00pm I expect to be let go (unless I'm taking this as my lunch period). Especially to socialize over coffee. As a production-level IC I just can't do that ethically [...] Just an aside, but at a senior level walking around and bullshitting with people is where a lot of the work gets done. At some point you'll get involved with a project that'…

Also at formal senior/project lead/management levels myself. I do not find what you are positing to be my reality, at all.

I don't think bullshitting leads to high productivity or task throughput. Anecdotally, I find the bullshitters are the ones holding the 20-40% of productive IC's back because of constant distractions, spec/scope socializing (and subsequent creep), and just general talking while others are trying to work. If there needs to be a meeting to work out spec I'd rather it be on the calendar where it's company sanctioned, has an agenda, and where we can formally gather action items to be delegated and assigned -- that last list of things does not happen with "bullshitting."

> At some point you'll get involved with a project that's so interesting you'll never really stop thinking about it, and then your idea of what someone looks like when they're "working" will change.

I've been very involved and interested in my work and this has not happened to me yet. People socializing in adhoc 1:1 conversations is where the "good ol' boys" comes from, and it has typically been incredibly damaging to my clients, specs, and timelines. My idea of people working is people traditionally working, adhering to the SDLC, and ensuring technical communications are not private.

In my anecdotal experience, "bullshitting" is a negative thing. I'd rather not be a "bullshitter," and I hope those around me don't use such language to describe me -- especially at a professional level.

---

Just to reiterate:

"Bullshitting" != "where a lot of the work gets done." "Bullshitting" is a negative thing.

And, being incredibly invested into a project has not yet changed my opinion on this. I find this comment makes assumptions of future me with the "at some point" language. Using a hypothetical regarding someone else's future self isn't ideal when arguing a point. It feels condescending in a "you just don't know yet" sorta way.

Re: Major shake-up coming for Fermilab, the troubled U.S. particle physics center

#149

Post by myself248 »

TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #82
cronix wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ebay is your friend. People buy entire boxes of unknown old electronic equipment junk that may or may not be working. "As is." You don't even have to really list the contents, just a big picture of everything. I think a lot are scrapping the gold and components, something I got into for awhile. I got almost 4 oz of solid gold from crushed cpu's, memory, old IC's, cable connectors, etc., using nitric acid, a hammer an…

Any videos on how to recover gold from crushed CPUs, ICs, etc?

Please, if they're not already crushed, find a classic collector to give them to. Most things from the gilded age (heh) have significance as antiques.

There's nothing more disheartening to a classic computing enthusiast than to see a historically-interesting minicomputer destroyed by goldbugs.

Re: Major shake-up coming for Fermilab, the troubled U.S. particle physics center

#150

Post by 1letterunixname »

luckylion wrote: post #18
1letterunixname wrote: post #14

Some categories shouldn't be privatized like medicine, military arms, basic science, road maintenance, and emergency rescue operations. Elon isn't going to work on particle physics without a direct commercial purpose.

"Road maintenance" shouldn't be done by private companies that are given contracts by the government? Why not?

"Please insert your FriendlyCard to unlock the street in front of your house."

And toll turnpikes.

"Public-Private Partnerships" are neoliberal fantasies of privatized, for-profit monopolies performing government functions while taxing working people. Most often, there is some sort of corrupt and unethical favoritism and revolving door between government official(s) and the vendor corporation.

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