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Why northern Europe is so indebted (2021)

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Re: Why northern Europe is so indebted (2021)

#141

Post by robomartin »

addaon wrote: post #139
robomartin wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Typically a good idea to read the entire post before commenting. I did not say anything about anything having to be free. Since you brought it up. No, they are not free. We have to pay for them. My point is that I should be able to own my paid-off home. The government should not be able to take my property away because of taxes. Payment for the services you mention should have no connection to home ownership. Everyon…

Okay, let's explore this idea. Suppose you own a home, free and clear, no mortgage, no property taxes. Once a quarter, you receive a tax bill (calculated in whatever equitable way you prefer) to cover your share of the upkeep of our shared society. What action do you propose society take if you choose not to pay that bill? There's basically three routes here: 1) Take no action. The quarterly tax system becomes a volu…

> Okay, let's explore this idea.

You are missing an entire family of methods that would work quite well and not lead to the kinds of problems periodic billing would engender.

Sales tax, VAT, etc. is one form of this.

And then, of course, there's income tax.

We have somehow lost control of the simple idea of the "village" getting together to pay for stuff by exploding into a system of thousands of different taxes nobody can keep track of. The end result is massive waste of resources, bad management, substandard results and large government organizations that are mostly incompetent at nearly everything they do.

My street has been repaved twice in 25 years. They tell me they are planning on repaving it yet again next year. This street is 25 years old. It was as close to perfect as one could get when I moved in, months after the built it. It was just as perfect just before they repaved it (twice). It is perfect now. And yet, they are going to do it again.

The financial waste on this one street alone is nothing less than vomit-inducing. They are doing this to keep unionized government-agency workers employed. Oh, yes, they tore-up and rebuilt our perfect sidewalks a few months ago. Absolutely and utterly unnecessary.

While I do recognize the idea of sending people a bill for taxes isn't great, sometimes I wish we had that, maybe for a year or so.

Why?

People have no clue whatsoever about how much of their money is being consumed by hundreds, if not thousands, of taxes they encounter on a daily basis. It would be fantastic to see one lump-sum bill show-up every month. I guarantee you voting decision would change radically after just a few months of that. What they are doing to the population through this explosions in taxes should be criminal.

Re: Why northern Europe is so indebted (2021)

#142

Post by tomcar288 »

robomartin wrote: post #44
cronin101 wrote: post #6

This is such a non-story, mainly driven by the fact that home ownership in Nordic countries is ubiquitous (80% of Norwegians OWN their primary dwelling) combined with the high medium incomes resulting in those houses being quite expensive. I’d really recommend not trying to draw any deeper conclusions from this data. Edit: by “own” I mean “have a non-paid off mortgage”, the tax on net wealth here actually disincentiv…

> 80% of Norwegians OWN their primary dwelling I see your clarification. Question: In Norway, if you pay-off your mortgage, do you still owe annual taxes on your property? If so, how much? What happens if you don't pay property taxes? One of the things that has always bothered me about home "ownership" is that, from my perspective, at least in the US, you never really own your home. You can pay off your mortgage, of…

Absolutely! You can't possibly say you own something if you have to pay rent on it to keep it. and not allowing someone to even own a home is basically tantamount to taxing their right to live.

And, you can always have a tiered system, for example, 0% on the first 1 million, then 0.5% on the next 500k, etc. that way at least people can downsize to something that they can own.

Re: Why northern Europe is so indebted (2021)

#143

Post by whitemary »

refurb wrote: post #126
whitemary wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your theory fails because northern European countries have significantly higher fertility rates than the US. See: https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/field/total-fertility... > Total Fertility Rate (TFR) is a more direct measure of the level of fertility than the crude birth rate, since it refers to births per woman.

If you're worried about population decline, it's birth rate you want to look at, not TFR.

If you're comparing 2 different countries without the exact same populations, you need TFR. And that is the case here.

I am utterly amazed at the lengths you people go to reinforce your delusions. Sorry to break it to you but libertarianism is a childish utopian fantasy.

Re: Why northern Europe is so indebted (2021)

#144

Post by addaon »

robomartin wrote: post #141
addaon wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, let's explore this idea. Suppose you own a home, free and clear, no mortgage, no property taxes. Once a quarter, you receive a tax bill (calculated in whatever equitable way you prefer) to cover your share of the upkeep of our shared society. What action do you propose society take if you choose not to pay that bill? There's basically three routes here: 1) Take no action. The quarterly tax system becomes a volu…

> Okay, let's explore this idea. You are missing an entire family of methods that would work quite well and not lead to the kinds of problems periodic billing would engender. Sales tax, VAT, etc. is one form of this. And then, of course, there's income tax. We have somehow lost control of the simple idea of the "village" getting together to pay for stuff by exploding into a system of thousands of different taxes nobo…

> You are missing an entire family of methods that would work quite well and not lead to the kinds of problems periodic billing would engender.

I am replying to your comment proposing periodic billing…

Re: Why northern Europe is so indebted (2021)

#145

Post by refurb »

whitemary wrote: post #143
refurb wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're worried about population decline, it's birth rate you want to look at, not TFR.

If you're comparing 2 different countries without the exact same populations, you need TFR. And that is the case here. I am utterly amazed at the lengths you people go to reinforce your delusions. Sorry to break it to you but libertarianism is a childish utopian fantasy.

The personal attack is unwarranted. And I'm not sure what libertarianism has to do with math.

If you're worried about population decline, it's birth rate (birth per capita) that matters, not TFR. It doesn't matter if your TFR is higher, but your replacement rate is lower.

Re: Why northern Europe is so indebted (2021)

#146

Post by robomartin »

addaon wrote: post #144
robomartin wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Okay, let's explore this idea. You are missing an entire family of methods that would work quite well and not lead to the kinds of problems periodic billing would engender. Sales tax, VAT, etc. is one form of this. And then, of course, there's income tax. We have somehow lost control of the simple idea of the "village" getting together to pay for stuff by exploding into a system of thousands of different taxes nobo…

> You are missing an entire family of methods that would work quite well and not lead to the kinds of problems periodic billing would engender. I am replying to your comment proposing periodic billing…

I understand. There are many intelligent ways to handle it.

A comment on HN isn't a full study of all available options and ideas along with comparisons of their effectiveness, consequences and probabilities of success.

Besides, given the impossibility of property taxes ever going away, this is very much on the category of...

https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/shoot-the-shit/

Re: Why northern Europe is so indebted (2021)

#147

Post by robomartin »

swexbe wrote: post #123
robomartin wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Typically a good idea to read the entire post before commenting. I did not say anything about anything having to be free. Since you brought it up. No, they are not free. We have to pay for them. My point is that I should be able to own my paid-off home. The government should not be able to take my property away because of taxes. Payment for the services you mention should have no connection to home ownership. Everyon…

What do you think would happen to the value of your home if the government, say, shut down the public road connecting it to the rest of society? What about the public water/electricity infrastructure? If you don't own property, you might still benefit from these services. But they don't affect your net worth.

> What do you think would happen to the value of your home if the government, say, shut down the public road connecting it to the rest of society?

Depends on where you live. Property values could actually increase! Portland, Oregon, for example.

Disclaimer: Since so many these days have lost the capacity to recognize and accept it...that was a lame attempt at humor. Please don't lose your shit over it. This is called a "joke". Jokes were an accepted form of social interaction many decades ago.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/joke

Re: Why northern Europe is so indebted (2021)

#148

Post by addaon »

robomartin wrote: post #146
addaon wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You are missing an entire family of methods that would work quite well and not lead to the kinds of problems periodic billing would engender. I am replying to your comment proposing periodic billing…

I understand. There are many intelligent ways to handle it. A comment on HN isn't a full study of all available options and ideas along with comparisons of their effectiveness, consequences and probabilities of success. Besides, given the impossibility of property taxes ever going away, this is very much on the category of... https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/shoot-the-shit/

But fundamentally you haven't shown that there's any method of taxation that eliminates the revocability of property. What's your proposed response to non-payment if not compelled payment / forfeiture of assets?

Re: Why northern Europe is so indebted (2021)

#149

Post by dusted »

One of the larger crimes here in Denmark, is that debt for example for homes are tax deductible, so basically, it allows banks to make more profit, by letting the state cover some of the expense of taking out a loan.

There's an old song "if you have money, you can buy, if you don't you can leave", people need to sing this to their kids a bit more often.

We're an incredibly wealthy society, and yet, most people chose to live above their means.. Loaning money for cars and homes instead of simply buying cheaper ones.

The last house I bought, I paid in cash, because it cost less than the down payment for many of the homes other people in my income bracket typically buy.

The last car I bought cost less than the service-check for the tesla that some of the other people in my income bracket..

Living below ones means in Denmark is trivial, and yet, people feel they're too good to live within their means, it's a cultural problem.

Re: Why northern Europe is so indebted (2021)

#150

Post by TheCoelacanth »

yakubin wrote: post #138
TheCoelacanth wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would law get enforced without taxes? Clearly the wealthier you are, the more benefit you are getting from taxes because the government stops everyone else from taking your wealth.

Yeah, but they don’t benefit from public health services, since they can pay for a private insurance with a higher quality of services. They don’t benefit from social benefits, since they have much more efficient ways of making money. They don’t benefit from public schools personally, since they can send their children to private schools. So if I were to go with the reasoning that people should pay for received servi…

Those things are nice, but the benefits are a rounding error compared to the benefit that the rich get from government enforcing the existence of property rights.
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