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I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition mechanisms

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Re: I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition mechanisms

#141

Everyone always goes with the "You don't need NAT, everything is globally routable!" argument, as if that's something that anybody wants. Everything on my network is going to go through my firewall anyway. I don't want anything on my network to be globally routable. Of course, this is not a good reason to not use IPv6, don't get me wrong. It's a problem that's easy to overcome, I just think it's not a good way to get…

There is no downside to everything to be globally routable. It's completely orthogonal to firewalling. What is the risk you're picturing here? I'm really curious. Features like RFC4941/8981 mean nobody can infer anything about your network from the source addresses they see making requests out if it. If you want to use link-local V6 addresses and NAT to a global one, you can do that. But IMHO that's sacrificing one o…

> nobody can infer anything about your network

They can infer that one IPV6 address matches to exactly one device. (reverse is not true, one device may have multiple addresses per privacy extensions)

Once device is identified all its past traffic is discernible.

Changing addresses means identification needs to be done again but once done it can be associated with past addresses and again, all its history is visible.

Identification might just mean querying a data broker with HTTP headers.

NAT does not have this issue.

Re: I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition mechanisms

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no downside to everything to be globally routable. It's completely orthogonal to firewalling. What is the risk you're picturing here? I'm really curious. Features like RFC4941/8981 mean nobody can infer anything about your network from the source addresses they see making requests out if it. If you want to use link-local V6 addresses and NAT to a global one, you can do that. But IMHO that's sacrificing one o…

> nobody can infer anything about your network They can infer that one IPV6 address matches to exactly one device. (reverse is not true, one device may have multiple addresses per privacy extensions) Once device is identified all its past traffic is discernible. Changing addresses means identification needs to be done again but once done it can be associated with past addresses and again, all its history is visible.…

> They can infer that an address matches to a single device

No they can't: the whole point of RFC4941/8981 is to prevent that. The source address for external connections is effectively randomized.

All that can be inferred is that it came from your network, but even with NAT you know that anyway.

Re: I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition mechanisms

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> nobody can infer anything about your network They can infer that one IPV6 address matches to exactly one device. (reverse is not true, one device may have multiple addresses per privacy extensions) Once device is identified all its past traffic is discernible. Changing addresses means identification needs to be done again but once done it can be associated with past addresses and again, all its history is visible.…

> They can infer that an address matches to a single device No they can't: the whole point of RFC4941/8981 is to prevent that. The source address for external connections is effectively randomized. All that can be inferred is that it came from your network, but even with NAT you know that anyway.

> The source address for external connections is effectively randomized

It's still unique to one device right?, even if random my argument still holds.

Or do you mean to say multiple devices can use the same address?

note: I've read the RFCs and they just mean - initial address is random but unique to a device. Each day the address will likely change but new address is still unique to the device (otherwise how would routing work).

This is what I structured my inital argument on. Do you see any fallacy in logic?

Re: I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition mechanisms

#146
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your machines could change their IPs for every second of every day and you wouldn't come close to exhausting your /64 subnet for the next billion years.

The limit of changing addresses once every N seconds as N approaches 0 is equal to offline. With any usable N, a clever observer would still easily work out what you were doing and still map out your infrastructure.

Why would changing N seconds break network? It would presumably keep active addresses until connections finish. IPv6 requires supporting multiple addresses per interface.

More reasonable is to use new address for each connection. Then nobody can tell if 10 addresses and 10 connections are one device or ten.

Re: I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition mechanisms

#147
post #41
post #4

Great idea. Now a question for the group. What are the non-network team business benefits to IPv6 over v4? That is what drives adoption.

OPEX and CAPEX costs are significantly reduced with native IPv6 vs large NAT deployments. Adding layers to stretch IPv4 = complexity/gear. Gear/complexity = higher costs. And if you're already moving away from perimeter defense, to more identity based zero-trust, the move to IPv6 makes much sense.

It is unfortunate that businesses are behind in rolling out IPv6. I get the impression that IPv6-only is more doable and has more advantages for business. It is feasible to run NAT64 in business cause don't have to support as much old software like games that people want to play. It helps with internal addressing issues which get complicated in big companies with acquisitions. Finally, it adds a security barrier between IPv4 for external and IPv6 for internal.

But upgrading a working network is lots of trouble. Most existing businesses have plenty of public IPv4 addresses and don't have to conserve.

Re: I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition mechanisms

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In theory, sure. In practice firewalls can be misconfigured. NAT doesn't have that problem.

NAT cannot be misconfigured? Really?

Not without being entirely broken. I think you might be bringing in uPnP, DNZ, and other such features. NAT itself is more basic.

Re: I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition mechanisms

#149
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NAT cannot be misconfigured? Really?

Unconfigured/not activated firewalls usually fail reachable; without explicit port forwarding or exposed hosts, NATs fail unreachable.

> Unconfigured/not activated firewalls usually fail reachable

Local firewalls on devices, maybe, but network firewalls generally are default-deny on untrusted interfaces, and between 0 and 1 interfaces are trusted by default.

Back in 2007 Apple's Airport Extreme Base Station shipped with a firmware that defaulted to allowing all IPv6 traffic, which was quickly pointed out in the tech media and fixed in a patch a few months later. A few of the garbage pile combo modem/router devices distributed by ISPs have had similar issues over the years as well. That's not normal behavior though, when it's observed it's rightfully considered a security flaw and tends to get the kind of attention vendors don't want.

If you know of a mainstream device that would "fail reachable" as you claim here, name and shame please.

> without explicit port forwarding or exposed hosts, NATs fail unreachable.

I work in VoIP and can say from plenty of direct experience this is not true. In the modern work from home era I've had to deal with a lot of the aforementioned garbage pile consumer devices and a recurring issue with some of our clients who had older phones is that their users' home routers did the laziest NAT possible and literally just opened a two way hole on port 5060 (SIP) so as long as the phone was communicating with our server and keeping the pinhole open *ANY* other traffic that hit port 5060 was also sent to the phone, which meant they got all kinds of "phantom calls" from bots looking for unprotected SIP relays.

Newer phones generally have an option to only accept SIP messages from trusted servers, but older ones sometimes don't so when combined with badly implemented NAT that happens.

And yea, obviously that's a consequence of a particularly bad NAT implementation, but your complaint is about an issue that would only occur in a particularly bad IPv6 implementation.

Re: I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition mechanisms

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no downside to everything to be globally routable. It's completely orthogonal to firewalling. What is the risk you're picturing here? I'm really curious. Features like RFC4941/8981 mean nobody can infer anything about your network from the source addresses they see making requests out if it. If you want to use link-local V6 addresses and NAT to a global one, you can do that. But IMHO that's sacrificing one o…

I'm not saying there's any downside, I'm just saying it's not the magic bullet "this is why you should use ipv6" that everyone seems to think it is. It's a complete non-issue that nobody really cares about.

> It's a complete non-issue that nobody really cares about.

Huh. IMHO it's the single most desirable feature, and the only reason I care about it at all.

If you're approaching this from the home networking point of view, than I suppose I agree: even the most complex home network is just too simple for anything like this to matter much.

As the network gets bigger, that sweet sweet global routability starts to make a lot of things a lot simpler... I'm lucky to have worked on an enormous deployment of V6-only servers, and it's downright magical in comparison to anything of comparable scale I've seen before or since.

But yes, my home network is three NAT'd /24's because I'm too lazy to figure out how to make prefix delegation work...

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