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When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

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Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#141
post #72
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely you can see that those lists doesn't answer the question. "Nineteenth century British geologist" isn't an innovation, and a woman contributing to a field does not mean that "diversity fuels innovation".

I'm sorry. I don't have a list of innovations that happened because an underprivileged person joined a profession and used their world view. I could say the rise in Facebook/casual gaming proves there was a market going untapped, but I'm not sure if that was done by a woman/casual gamer, so I'm hesitant to use it. I was hoping it would be apparent that bringing in a different perspective would help a brand or profess…

[deleted]

Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#142
post #126
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So there can only be one explanation?

There's a main explanation. Do you have another that might suffice?

I have one to offer, though I will admit it is reasonably controversial in various dimensions (e.g. sexist, etc.):

- I am /of the opinion/ that young women have greater social intelligence and nuanced sensitivity than young men.

- And, that (IMO) here in America there is a prevalent negative social attitude towards nerds/geeks/intellectuals.

- Matters have certainly improved since the realization that "nerds" can become tycoons, and some are recognized. But it should be noted that this does not indicate a change is societal attitude towards geeks. Linus Torvalds is not a household name. Zuckermann is well known, but he is a business success and celebrated for his business (and yes, social), and not technical, acumen.

- The field, in my experience, is one of the most meritocratic in existence today in our society (which is the primary reason I continue a professional practice). I would code for fun, regardless.

- But, it is certainly true in my experience that the workforce was and remains preponderantly male, although it seems to have improved (but see below).

The summation of above considerations gives support to a thought that is further reinforced by a consideration of the female colleagues I have worked with over the past 20 years:

Every single one was either an immigrant (1 Israeli, 1 Romanian, 1 Pakistani, 1 Brazilian, & recently quite a few Indian and/or Russian/Eastern European women), or, the designated brainiac social minority group that themselves celebrate cerebral members, e.g. Jewish and Asian Americans, etc. In fact, my first female coworker (who happened to also be my boss/team-lead) was a Cooper Union grad and a Chinese American.

Finally, let me tell you a very simple human fact: most of us men in the field would probably be very happy to have a more balanced work environment. So the thought that we would go out of our way to discriminate against women flies in the face of both personal experience (I interviewed and selected the Israeli and the Romanian as the de facto CTO of a startup in '89), and my general understanding of my fellow male geeks.

(Also, note that I made an effort to reach out to a fellow geek (female, of course) that I only know via her github projects. She confirmed that "agism" was what concerned her most.)

None of this is to offer a conclusive explanation, but I am of the strong opinion that:

when the day arrives that (American) society adopts the same social respect/capital towards its cerebral members that it currently affords business, media, and sports personalities, will be the day that will see young cerebral women make the (intelligent and thoughtful) choice to enter into the field (and related fields, such as Mathematics) in greater numbers.

(End opinion)

Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#143
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The title is a reference to the song "Rebel Girl" by the seminal Riot Grrrl band Bikini Kill.

"seminal", huh. I doubt whether they would take that as a compliment.

Nothing sexual was implied by my comment, though I do see how the word is problematic. "Seminal" is so frequently used to describe early and influential bands in punk, including Riot Grrrl, that the etymology is rarely considered.

Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#144

I don't know. Women have always coded. I was taught assembler (my first programming job) by a woman. They have always been there (admittedly in smaller numbers then men) but they have always struck me as being excellent coders. We have women like Ada Lovelace and Grace Murray Hopper as fine computing minds to emulate and admire. Women have always been able to take to coding in my experience and be first class at it.…

Don't include Ada with Hopper as Ada didn't really contribute anything and she is incorrectly considered the first programmer. Hopper actually did something and she did influence the field.

That's simply not true. Countess Lovelace was a brilliant algorithmic wrangler. She was one of the first of her time to realise that any mathematically definable problem could be reduced to a series of true/false branches and that from that a machine (mechanical or electronic) would be able to make calculations of almost any type.

She also was behind a lot of analysis of stuff like log table errors.

This is probably more the definition of a Systems Analyst, but that job doesn't exist anymore, so we would regard her as a coder.

Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#145
post #140
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which one of the non-realistic explanations is the closest to being a realistic explanation, and in what way does it fall short?

A non-realistic explanation would be that women are evolutionarily built to hate programming/technology so these fields naturally do not appeal to them. This also encompasses the "men are better at tech" thing. Another non-realistic explanation would be that women collectively do not want to go into tech despite being equally good at it as men. As in, there isn't any discrimination, and they would be just as suited a…

And there you have it, ladies and gentlemen: The modern godless creationist in full crusader gear. Thank you, it's been a pleasure.

Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never a bad thing? The median male developer is so inept at writing correct software that the industry would be better off without him. If these women weren't irresistibly drawn to the work, how can we expect them to be substantially better, rather than merely doubling the amount of crap we're already struggling with? If anything, we need a much tougher filter before we go out and entice the masses.

You've expressed an ivory tower viewpoint. Forget the "industry". These people are learning to code for themselves, to scratch their own itches. I encourage you to think less like a software engineer and more like a hacker. These people are gaining greater digital literacy. They are gaining the tools to solve their own problems. Only a few of them will take up software as a profession. They will be subject to the sam…

Oh, I'm all for everyone tinkering, that's practically a sacrament. But

> If we allow the future of the web, software, hardware, video games, etc. to be conceptualized, created and maintained by just one sector of the population, it’s impossible to expect that it will serve the needs of the entire group.

and

> We recognize the power of diversity and want to seek ways to attract more women and girls in to the tech industry – for their own personal benefit and the overall potential of the industry.

suggest the goal is to substantially change the face of the industry. And the existing filter is entirely inadequate for a large number of candidates only moderately interested.

Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#147
post #51

What I find interesting is that "tech jargon" is listed as the number one reason these women feared getting involved in the technical side of there businesses. It is not as though men are born knowing this jargon; they spend both work and free time learning it as a part of their interests. I know this is an old question, but how are we raising our young women to shy away from these things? Why is it acceptable to let…

Why? Because misogyny is a tool that can be wielded in many directions. And it gets wielded to defend privilege and power. Once a field is defined as powerful, part of an elite, girls often are driven out of it as that field or interest is redefined to be a male thing. Boys, and girls too, ostracize and mock girls who are "into computers" because they are going outside a gender norm. If you think this doesn't still h…

I think maybe you read the first part of my statement and not the second. Please read my original statement.

Of course I think this still happens. I'm not shocked, just frustrated. I'm wondering what we can do as individuals to change this.

Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't include Ada with Hopper as Ada didn't really contribute anything and she is incorrectly considered the first programmer. Hopper actually did something and she did influence the field.

That's simply not true. Countess Lovelace was a brilliant algorithmic wrangler. She was one of the first of her time to realise that any mathematically definable problem could be reduced to a series of true/false branches and that from that a machine (mechanical or electronic) would be able to make calculations of almost any type. She also was behind a lot of analysis of stuff like log table errors. This is probably…

That's simply not backed by evidence. It was Charles Babbage who most likely wrote the first "program" not to mention he created and thought of them without any help from her. Her role is greatly exaggerated and usually baseless. It's like if you credit me about with the invention of search technology if I say something like that will power the search of everything.

If she were a man, I doubt we would be mentioning her, just like the man who her set of notes were based on (with the program done by Babbage in the appendix). Either way, it's not all that important as I don't think anyone in computer science was influenced by this work, Babbage included. He is a historical interest and ahead of his time.

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