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B2B startups stop innovating the day you give power to product managers

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Re: B2B startups stop innovating the day you give power to product managers

#141

Post by ttymck »

kareemm wrote: post #131
sb8244 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also matches with my experience fwiw. The biggest issue I saw with qualitative is that it almost always was used to reinforce an existing idea that the PM has. I've never heard a PM say they learned something surprising and are reconsidering their initial idea.

> I've never heard a PM say they learned something surprising and are reconsidering their initial idea. You have never worked with a good PM then. I hear unexpected things from customers pretty much every single time I talk to one.

It's possible I've not worked with a good PM, but the fact remains that I haven't seen the industry _incentivize_ the "good PM" behavior you're describing nor have there been consequences for "bad PMs", so does "good" and "bad" really mean anything?

Re: B2B startups stop innovating the day you give power to product managers

#142

Post by xyzelement »

bastawhiz wrote: post #99
xyzelement wrote: post #94

Didn't read article but can react to headline. I am a PM who used to be an engineer and eng manager. In my engineering life, in retrospect I did PM work too - ie, orient my teams work to highest value as expressed in financial and user impact terms. The eng/PM split is an unfortunate outcome of the fact that many engineers and engineering leads aren't capable of thinking in practical business terms, and so they need…

I don't think you read the headline, either. The headline (and the article) both make no mention of engineering. In fact, you said nothing about innovation, which is the core premise of the article. From the post: > There is a famous quote about Henry Ford “If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses”. Innovation is not something you see in the data. It is someone that has intuition and…

Fair enough! You're right.

Re: B2B startups stop innovating the day you give power to product managers

#143

Post by robertlagrant »

llamaLord wrote: post #139
robertlagrant wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you go by volume, you may well find that the theoretical definition you're referring to is outnumbered by the practical reality. I definitely wouldn't assume that reality matches theory.

I'm going by my personal experience as a PM. To be fair, whenever I talk on a PM panel I tend to be the odd one out. For example, I tend to be the guy on the panel all the other PM's hate because I taught myself to code so that I could have deeper empathy for how my engineering teams work and now I advocate for all PM's needing to be at least moderately technical. Rocking the boat certainly doesn't make you popular h…

Yes - totally agree. It's a tricky job, and there are real product people, of course, but I think there has been a bit of a migration away from the slightly unfashionable "project manager" into roles such as this one, flooding it.

Also, Product has in some places gone from a valued member of the team to a ruling class, with all the faux problems that generates.

It's a funny one!

Re: B2B startups stop innovating the day you give power to product managers

#144

Post by kareemm »

ttymck wrote: post #141
kareemm wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've never heard a PM say they learned something surprising and are reconsidering their initial idea. You have never worked with a good PM then. I hear unexpected things from customers pretty much every single time I talk to one.

It's possible I've not worked with a good PM, but the fact remains that I haven't seen the industry _incentivize_ the "good PM" behavior you're describing nor have there been consequences for "bad PMs", so does "good" and "bad" really mean anything?

There are lots of companies where talking to customers is a requirement for a PM to have continued employment. I’ve worked for more than a few. Seems to me that’s a pretty significant incentive.

Re: B2B startups stop innovating the day you give power to product managers

#145

Post by NickC25 »

ghiculescu wrote: post #114
NickC25 wrote: post #108

I've seen PMs "scope creep" themselves to boost their CVs for when they leave and go somewhere else. These PMs suck. They are the type to lead meetings I was a PM for 4 years in a startup. I helped the engineers avoid (most) meetings, I was obsessed with our customers and their pain points - and spoke with them frequently; as well hyper-obsessed with the competition and where we could improve. I took suggestions from…

can I hire you?

Yes! I saw a bit about your companies, and not sure where exactly I'd fit in, but always down to have a chat. My email and linkedin are in my profile.

Re: B2B startups stop innovating the day you give power to product managers

#146

Post by htrp »

Closi wrote: post #77
evnix wrote: post #60

Most good software out there were started by engineers and not by product managers and engineer only products are generally great and liked by people. Linux and the ecosystem is one example. I am not sure what really happens after Product Managers come in that the product takes a dive. I have seen this repeat almost everywhere. You start with a small team of engineers and have a product that people love, now you need…

> Lawyers are lead by Senior lawyers You could argue that Lawyers are lead by their clients in the same way that Engineers are led by their end users / PMs. The difference is that in the Doctor & Lawyer examples your end-user is very obvious because it is the person in-front of you. With Engineering you are not usually in constant contact with your end users, hence the PM role.

You mean lawyers are led by Partners at the firm.....

Re: B2B startups stop innovating the day you give power to product managers

#147

Post by ttymck »

kareemm wrote: post #144
ttymck wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's possible I've not worked with a good PM, but the fact remains that I haven't seen the industry _incentivize_ the "good PM" behavior you're describing nor have there been consequences for "bad PMs", so does "good" and "bad" really mean anything?

There are lots of companies where talking to customers is a requirement for a PM to have continued employment. I’ve worked for more than a few. Seems to me that’s a pretty significant incentive.

"Talking to customers" is "good PM behavior"? Isn't that like saying "writing code" is "good developer behavior"?

Re: B2B startups stop innovating the day you give power to product managers

#148

Post by ghiculescu »

NickC25 wrote: post #145
ghiculescu wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

can I hire you?

Yes! I saw a bit about your companies, and not sure where exactly I'd fit in, but always down to have a chat. My email and linkedin are in my profile.

I just though that was a funny comment, but now I'm going to reach out for real.
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