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Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

economist.com

141–150 of 320 posts

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#141
post #10

My wife has worked in the 'enforcing building codes' sector of engineering for her entire career. And it's so frustrating to watch. Everyone - everyone - is certain that the codes are all overzealous and their little thing needs an exception. Politicians get elected promising to 'get rid of the red tape'. And then an event occurs and we learn why these building codes exist. Like workplace safety rules, they are writt…

In Turkey it is different, even the minimum requirements were bypassed with exemptions due to government's contractors friendly policies, and Erdoğan has recently been promising "the biggest social housing project in the history of the Turkish republic'. Most houses in Turkey are of inferior quality, I visited Antalya and the thin walls and roofs of buildings and rooms of the flats barely had privacy in terms of sound proofing within it and with the neighboring flats. The same was the rule up north, and from my discussions with some locals inferior quality and low standard was not only in building materials and standards but in several other sectors.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#142

Libertarians: this is why we have building codes. We don't need builders cutting corners and harming people years down the road, because profit convinced them that was the right thing to do for their own interests.

Why were the people living in that house so greedy that they cheeped out on buying/renting housing? There is soundly built housing in Turkey. If they were rich enough to buy sturdier housing then they could have done that. I'm not pointing this out to blame those people in any way, but it may be legitimately they can't afford better housing and this is the best they could do and the risk of dying in an earthquake was…

Corruption doesn’t make things cheaper. Shoddy housing most likely costs the same as up to code housing, especially since you can’t tell if it complies or not (hard to see the rebar embedded in the concrete or its absence)

See the market for lemons.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#143
I'm sure there's a whole chain of broken links and enough blame to share around, but as an engineer, I have to ask why we sometimes forget that we, as doctors, are also bound by a creed, which says (among other things, depending on the version), that we place service before profit, and the welfare of the public above all other considerations and that we'll "practice our profession conscientiously, with dignity, and in accordance with the highest ethical and professional standards". Am I too naive to still believe in this?

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#144
> Construction amnesties, which allow owners to register unlicensed properties or ones that violate building codes in exchange for a fine, have made a bad situation much worse. Mr Erdogan’s government passed several such amnesties, the latest in 2018, ahead of general elections. The opposition backed the move, because it was popular with voters. The government reaped the political dividends, while millions of property owners ended up paying into state coffers and assuming the risk. A year after the 2018 amnesty, Mr Erdogan appeared in Kahramanmaras, proudly announcing that the programme “had solved the problems” of 144,000 of the city’s residents

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#145

How many benefitted from cheaper and more accessible housing as a result of the lax enforcement of building codes? I remain unconvinced that obscenely strict building codes are a net-positive.

They're dead and buried under rubble, but before that at least they saved a little money on rent. Sounds like a pretty bad trade-off to me.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the code is always overzealous (never met an exception), and the smaller the house the more overzealous it is. If it wasn't, we would have a much easier time persecuting people that breaks it, and much more public sympathy for large culprits that actually have much fewer (relatively to their capacity) strings over then than any random person. The same applies to fire codes.

> The same applies to fire codes. As someone who has been close to almost-tragedies caused by fires, can you give me examples where fire codes are over-zealous? I've had family almost getting killed, even though they did follow the fire codes - the didn't even get a fine or a case against them. If you ask me, the fire codes were not strict enough in that instance.

> can you give me examples where fire codes are over-zealous?

There's a small movement to eradicate the requirement for midrise buildings to have 2 stairways. Advocates point to European regulations and claim that a single stairway is just as safe as 2.

Double stairways, they say, makes construction more expensive and results in awkward, undesirable apartment layouts.

https://slate.com/business/2021/12/staircases-floor-plan-twi...

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#147

Libertarians: this is why we have building codes. We don't need builders cutting corners and harming people years down the road, because profit convinced them that was the right thing to do for their own interests.

Do we have building codes in the US?

Does anybody know what they are?

Does anybody know if builders are required to follow them?

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#148
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure what you are equating this to in software, but if it is security vulnerabilities, incompetence has probably more to do with it than time pressure. It takes about the time to write a parametrised query than to concatenate your strings.

Depends on what you are building. Websites probably not going to kill you. Other things well... https://hackaday.com/2015/10/26/killed-by-a-machine-the-ther... "AECL never publicly released the source code, but several experts including [Nancy Leveson] did obtain access for the investigation. What they found was shocking. The software appeared to have been written by a programmer with little experience coding for rea…

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Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The same applies to fire codes. As someone who has been close to almost-tragedies caused by fires, can you give me examples where fire codes are over-zealous? I've had family almost getting killed, even though they did follow the fire codes - the didn't even get a fine or a case against them. If you ask me, the fire codes were not strict enough in that instance.

I mean, it's possible for something to be simultaneously overzealous and not strict enough. If the code focuses on the wrong measures, it could end up putting unnecessary red tape, while completely failing to provide adequate safety. I don't know enough about fire code to know whether it applies here.

It's often the case that this happens, because building/fire codes always balance cost as a part of the decision whether or not to require something... sometimes cheap things don't help much but we do them anyway because they're cheap. Sometimes expensive things would help a lot but we don't do them because it's prohibitively expensive.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An increasing problem locally (Boulder) is the use of the permitting process to push high-cost climate goals on home owners, leading to them skipping permitting and inspection entirely. Here, you’re required to choose at least three expensive improvements from a set of eight (iirc), ranging from relatively cheap (electric vehicle charger) to very expensive (rooftop solar). My home was built in the 1970s, the bathroom…

We have the same problem in Telluride. I have to pay an extra 20k to get an upgraded circuit to charge my Rivian when I am already under the limit.

If it costs you 20k to upgrade a circuit, your story is missing some important details.
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