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Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

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Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#141

Post by [deleted] »

roguecoder wrote: post #112
yummyfajitas wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only does he make the logical fallacies you suggest, but he also ignores plenty of evidence that there might be natural causes: For instance, there is plenty of evidence women are less likely to be very good (or very bad) at math: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/321/5888/494.summary http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21038941 There is also evidence women are more risk averse, making them less likely to work in…

That study; I do not think it means what you think it means. Especially the first one: women are better at math in some cultural settings and worse in others, suggesting that the gender gap is culturally determined. In order to prove that these things were biologically determined you would either need to show that they were present at birth, across a large number of different cultural contexts, or had direct, traceab…

[deleted]

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#142

Post by yummyfajitas »

roguecoder wrote: post #121
yummyfajitas wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's an "extraordinary claim"? And also, why do claims that are "historically dubious" automatically fall into the category of "extraordinary"? In Bayesian terms, it sounds like you are merely stating that you assign a very small prior to the "natural reasons" hypothesis. I.e., you are claiming that before looking at the evidence, you believe "natural reasons" has a 1 in 1 million (or some similarly large number) c…

Because oppression hurts real people, with real consequences. Any argument that will be used to deny people equal rights and justify mistreatment of them requires extraordinary evidence, because otherwise we end up at eugenics. These discussions aren't theoretical; to pretend they are is actively harmful.

Your entire post is a logical fallacy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_consequences

Further, it's not even a correct use of the Appeal to Consequences fallacy. If the natural causes hypothesis is true, it does not logically follow that anyone should be oppressed.

It does, however, logically follow from the "natural causes" hypothesis that you can't have both equal rights and equal proportions (i.e., either you discriminate against men, or you have fewer women).

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#143

Post by MSwaffer »

"Girls aren't supposed to get involved in robotics" was the answer I got from a high school girl on why more girls weren't in the robotics club. All the stats about girls not doing well in math etc. just tell me that gender stereotyping is alive and well.

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#144

Post by nsxwolf »

shallowwater wrote: post #127
lindseybieda wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's up to everyone in the community to fix this. No matter what their sex or race. It's just a matter of being a more open and welcoming community. I'm sure there are fellow female (and other minority) programmers reading the comments on this article feeling completely unwelcome in the programming community.

I'm one of those lady-types reading the comments here and getting the message loud and clear that no matter how interested I may be, or how talented I may become, I am not a welcome addition to this community.

What led you to that conclusion? No, seriously, I want to know. Why don't you feel welcome?

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#145

Post by Kathy »

greggman wrote: post #58

I'm having a problem with this as well. I'm sure I get the bozo bit flipped on me but... Let's pick some other topics. What's the percentage of men vs women that knit as a hobby? Crochet? Cross Stitch? Scrapbook? Ok, those are hobbies. But I'll bet if you asked most programmers, at least the good ones, they got started programming as a hobby and that happened to end up leading to a career. How about nurses? In the US…

As noted above, the lack of men in nursing is something that the nursing community worries about.

What I do think anyone who wants to see more women programmers can do is this: if you hear that women (or a woman) is discouraged from X for reason Y do not dismiss their concern. First, reason Y is probably a symptom not the main reason. Second, dismissal is in itself a discouragement, as it implies that their opinion is not worth anything. It would better to reflect on what the main reason might be (or what assumption are you making that may be false).

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#146

Post by roguecoder »

monochromatic wrote: post #108
MartinCron wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you provide an example of the barriers of which you speak? Here's a real-world example: A workplace where most of the (all-male) development team is using the same "bikini babe" screensaver. It's a small thing to a guy, something you may not even notice. It's a small thing to plenty of women, too. Some other women may see that as an implicit message that they aren't taken seriously as anything but a sex object. S…

Women getting their panties in a bunch about something as minor as that is the reason they aren't taken seriously in the workplace (to the extent they aren't, I mean).

Thank you monochromatic for provide an example for iuguy.

What he described is illegal in the US, by the way, and can get both you and your employer sued. It's not minor: it's part of culture bonding based on women-as-sex-objects rather than as possible equal participants.

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#147

Post by Kathy »

nsxwolf wrote: post #144
shallowwater wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm one of those lady-types reading the comments here and getting the message loud and clear that no matter how interested I may be, or how talented I may become, I am not a welcome addition to this community.

What led you to that conclusion? No, seriously, I want to know. Why don't you feel welcome?

How about comments like "Women getting their panties in a bunch about something as minor as that is the reason they aren't taken seriously in the workplace (to the extent they aren't, I mean)"? Not even so much the message as the way it was said.

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#148

Post by Tichy »

youngnerd112 wrote: post #101
bethling wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been called a bitch to my face during architectural debates. I've had responses to my technical comments come back as "whatever, sudo make me a sandwich". Been asked while doing interviews, "Oh wait you're not HR?" I've gone to many presentations contain sexist images, etc. Throughout my career I've been constantly had to deal with implications that I don't belong - and that my opinions can be dismissed.. Yet, s…

Trust me I try....but being a nerd and a racial minority it is hard to keep a straight mind when nine out of ten women look the other way when you try to approach them to start a conversation. I dont think you have been in a situation where "Can I buy you a drink" is replied with a "you're ugly ...go away".

While saying such things is really ugly (I don't want to defend such women), maybe it could help you a little to think about the asymmetry in dating. Attractive women get approached all the time, a feeling most men probably can't begin to appreciate. If you are a programmer, compare it to the emails from recruiters you get all the time... There are certainly lots of such emails that I have taken to delete without reply now.

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#149

Post by nsxwolf »

Kathy wrote: post #147
nsxwolf wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What led you to that conclusion? No, seriously, I want to know. Why don't you feel welcome?

How about comments like "Women getting their panties in a bunch about something as minor as that is the reason they aren't taken seriously in the workplace (to the extent they aren't, I mean)"? Not even so much the message as the way it was said.

That's like one guy on this whole thread. Everyone else would be more than happy to see you in an interview.

We all would. We're just not seeing you gals come in. We've got quite a few female project managers and business devs at my company, but no programmers.

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#150

Post by shallowwater »

nsxwolf wrote: post #144
shallowwater wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm one of those lady-types reading the comments here and getting the message loud and clear that no matter how interested I may be, or how talented I may become, I am not a welcome addition to this community.

What led you to that conclusion? No, seriously, I want to know. Why don't you feel welcome?

Well, the fact that people are attempting to argue that, as a lady, I am somehow 'naturally' unfit for intellectual/mathematical/logical tasks is pretty insulting. I know that you (general) are not talking about me (specifically), but it's pretty hard not to take it a little personally.

Then there is the tone of "No, there could not possibly be a problem with US" that permeates so many comments on this thread. There are very few voices that are even willing to entertain the idea that there is an aspect of this culture that is unwelcoming or hostile to women.

And finally, there are all the comments that seem to be saying that who cares why there is a strong gender imbalance in this field, they don't see a problem with the status quo, and that including more women in the field is completely unnecessary and not worth considering, much less actually doing anything about.

So yeah. Not feeling like I could ask any of these people and a question about something I'm studying or make a comment about something technical without getting either a lot of "pat pat little girl" or otherwise insulting and unhelpful reactions.

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