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Japan has changed in important and visible ways

noahpinion.substack.com

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Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#141

Post by astrange »

asiachick wrote: post #5

I like all the rebuttals but the top still strikes me as mostly unsubstantiated claims > That (gerontocracy) in turn has caused Japanese companies to fall behind foreign rivals as they miss technological revolution after revolution — microprocessors, smartphones, semiconductor foundries, battery-powered cars, etc. smartphones: Japan led the world until iPhone then everyone was catching up. Nokia, Ericsson, Microsoft.…

Startups being accepted in Japan is a very recent US-influenced phenomenon. In an earlier wave they were called "venture companies" and were completely distrusted - you were not considered proper members of society.

Similarly they have "indie games" in Japan now, even though they always had that (doujin games), but now they're more respectable.

(Of course, if you're doing a bitcoin startup you shouldn't be considered a proper member of society, more like a phone scammer.)

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#142

Post by hogepiyo »

vasco wrote: post #111
hogepiyo wrote: post #92

It's difficult to take the author of the article being repudiated (Wingfield-Hayes) seriously when he has lived here for over 10 years and doesn't speak the language. Any other person who lived in a country for a decade and can't converse in the language would be (rightfully imo) shamed for it. Idk, say what you like about how journalists operate but living somewhere for a decade and not speaking the language doesn't…

So if you live in 4 countries over four decades in your adult life you will learn 4 new languages? I don't think you must've lived more than one place abroad, or somewhere with good English. For example I speak 4 languages, understand another 2, but don't speak the language of the country I've lived in for the last 3.5 years, and I'm not even learning. At some point it's just absolutely not worth it and I'm just gonn…

>So if you live in 4 countries over four decades in your adult life you will learn 4 new languages?

Well, first I would argue that you're a massive outlier to the norm. I don't think living in multiple countries for decades at a time each that don't share a language is at all common.

>This is the most common take you hear from people that never lived abroad, only speak one language, or lived abroad in a single place where they learn their first ever new language. Then judge someone who'd be learning their 4th or 5th. It's absolutely not the same thing for a native english speaker to learn one single foreign language when they move once and compare it under the same light.

I don't really see the need for the presumption. If you move around that much and speak that many languages, all the more power to you. I was just saying generally if you live somewhere for a decade you should (probably) be reasonably competent in the language, especially if you're a journalist attempting to write insightful articles aimed at broadening a foreign understanding of the place.

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#143

Post by 314 »

donw wrote: post #123
sho_hn wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Any other person who lived in a country for a decade and can't converse in the language would be (rightfully imo) shamed for it. I'm German, living in Berlin, and have wonderful friends who fit that description. They live full lives, and I couldn't care less about their German levels. They do enough good things with their time they put their energy into instead. People should learn languages if they feel a reason t…

If one can't bother learning the language of the country in which they live, any opinion one might have on that country can be safely discarded.

This take is a bit basic.

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#144

Post by Dalewyn »

recurser wrote: post #127
willbudd wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I know, naturalization only involves a basic language test at around the level of N3; which should be very easy if you picked up any Japanese at all during the years spent living in the country. The reason so few people acquire Japanese citizenship is not because of the difficulty doing so, but because it offers little in terms of tangible benefits beyond those already acquired by virtue of having permanent…

> The reason so few people acquire Japanese citizenship is not because of the difficulty doing so, but because it offers little in terms of tangible benefits beyond those already acquired by virtue of having permanent residency status. This. I've been in Japan for 15 years, and have permanent residency. Citizenship would basically only grant me the right to vote for (or against, I guess) the party that has been in po…

>In exchange for that, I would have to give up 3 other citizenships. Not a great deal...

Obligatory IANAL, but the "no dual citizenship" thing is a Japanese thing and it's not like the Japanese government will go around informing other countries of your new citizenship status. You would have to make the rounds yourself informing the governments concerned you renounced their respective citizenship.

Which is to say: I'm an American, if I went and got Japanese citizenship then the Japanese government won't care to inform the US government about the proceedings, nor will the US government care even if I personally tell them because the US government permits dual citizenship. Japan would care about my holding dual American citizenship, but again: They wouldn't care to inform their American counterparts.

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#145

Post by astrange »

elefanten wrote: post #104
asiachick wrote: post #5

I like all the rebuttals but the top still strikes me as mostly unsubstantiated claims > That (gerontocracy) in turn has caused Japanese companies to fall behind foreign rivals as they miss technological revolution after revolution — microprocessors, smartphones, semiconductor foundries, battery-powered cars, etc. smartphones: Japan led the world until iPhone then everyone was catching up. Nokia, Ericsson, Microsoft.…

There might be no reason Japan should have led / captured the current iteration of those markets… but it doesn’t paint a great picture that they got NONE of them after building up into a very competitive position by the 90s, when they were global leaders of quite a few categories / product areas. By your own account, they led gen1 smartphones, but have ended up with 0% of gen2. They led EVs but dont have a top 5 make…

> By your own account, they led gen1 smartphones, but have ended up with 0% of gen2.

Japan still manufactures/designs a lot of components used in phones (flash, RAM, LCD displays, cameras), just not the final product or the software.

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#146

Post by [deleted] »

karaokeyoga wrote: post #93
eric4smith wrote: post #27

Visited Japan and loved it. BUT. The rest of the world treats Japan as something "special". All the media/manga/anime/pr0n/temples/culture and people. What I've learned traveling to various countries in the region? There's nothing really special about Japan, it's people, or it's media. The country and its denizens have been blown out of proportion with a kind of reputation that's out of this world... for the past 50…

I've lived here for over ten years and generally agree with you. I love it here, but I also feel that some westerners treat Japan with a "specialness" or "exoticness" that it doesn't quite deserve.

[deleted]

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#147

Post by noch »

sho_hn wrote: post #109
hogepiyo wrote: post #92

It's difficult to take the author of the article being repudiated (Wingfield-Hayes) seriously when he has lived here for over 10 years and doesn't speak the language. Any other person who lived in a country for a decade and can't converse in the language would be (rightfully imo) shamed for it. Idk, say what you like about how journalists operate but living somewhere for a decade and not speaking the language doesn't…

> Any other person who lived in a country for a decade and can't converse in the language would be (rightfully imo) shamed for it. I'm German, living in Berlin, and have wonderful friends who fit that description. They live full lives, and I couldn't care less about their German levels. They do enough good things with their time they put their energy into instead. People should learn languages if they feel a reason t…

> They live full lives, and I couldn't care less about their German levels. They do enough good things with their time they put their energy into instead.

What an odd mindset. Anecdotally, prior generations of Europeans (and expatriates) valued being multilingual. Having a working knowledge of German, Italian, French, English was fun, valuable, and normal especially when doing business in diverse countries and with diverse peoples.

That generation even taught us that "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." I guess that principle is no longer a thing.

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#148

Post by petodo »

woahitsraj wrote: post #103
rullelito wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Any other person who lived in a country for a decade and can't converse in the language would be (rightfully imo) shamed for it. You haven't been to Sweden then.

I spent about half my year in Japan and half my year in Sweden and I speak both languages. It's always shocked me how many expats feel it's not necessary to speak the language but the justifications are totally different. In Sweden they say "Everyone here speaks English anyway" In Japan they say "All of my friends are expats anyway" I think if people don't want to learn a language they will come up with any excuse.

> I spent about half my year in Japan and half my year in Sweden and I speak both languages.

Yeah, I really doubt that you can move to Japan with zero Japanese and in half year learn enough to hold normal conversation and be able to read/write Japanese, all that while working full time and not being immersed every day in Japanese language course.

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#149

Post by pjmlp »

digianarchist wrote: post #114
Cloudef wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dual citizenship is kind of gray area in Japan. As long as you don't talk about it, nobody really cares. (And this attitude kind of sums japan as a whole)

Don't authorities require evidence that you have given up your previous citizenship? Singapore does.

I wonder how that works for countries where it is a crime to give up the citizenship, does Singapore make an exception?

I am aware that Germany does.

Re: Japan has changed in important and visible ways

#150

Post by petodo »

pavlov wrote: post #107
rullelito wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Any other person who lived in a country for a decade and can't converse in the language would be (rightfully imo) shamed for it. You haven't been to Sweden then.

Or Finland, or the Netherlands, etc. English is so widely spoken in these countries that many foreigners manage entirely without learning the local language. It’s got to the point that in central Helsinki, you often can’t get service in Finnish in bars or restaurants.

This is also starting to happen in Prague city center, though the real reason is those overpriced tourist traps are not frequented by locals so there is no need for staff to speak local language, it should be enough warning for you (as local) that you are in tourist trap.
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