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New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

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Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#141

Post by sokoloff »

int_19h wrote: post #138
sokoloff wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I brake check someone on the highway, causing an accident, and it’s discovered that that’s what happened, I’d be pretty shocked* if the trailing driver was found responsible. That video looks like a combined lane change and brake check on the part of the Tesla. * and disappointed

Why would you be shocked and disappointed? It is the obligation of the driver trailing you to maintain enough distance to be able to stop safely if the car in front of them has to brake hard for whatever reason. The fact that your hard braking wasn't actually necessary may mean that you're also responsible, but it doesn't absolve the other driver.

As a matter of pragmatism, the person intentionally putting other drivers at unnecessary risk by being an asshole should bear the responsibility for the outcomes of that intentional and unnecessary risk they elected to subject roadway users to.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#142

Post by Mawr »

macintux wrote: post #114
Winsaucerer wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Have you watched the video? Its freeway speeds, a decently busy freeway, at a tunnel entrench that’s curving. Plus the car switched to the passing lane and abruptly stopped. The Tesla car switching and abruptly stopping was a big problem, and I can understand that first car having trouble, but for cars behind the first one they should ideally all be keeping a distance ready for suddenly hitting the brakes in an eme…

Even the recommended 2 second following distance is insufficient when the vehicle in front of you comes to an immediate halt and there’s no room to switch lanes.

The recommended following distance is "Never get closer than the overall stopping distance." [1], so even if the car in front somehow went from 70mph to 0 instantly, you should be able to stop.

[1]: https://assets.highwaysengland.co.uk/stay+safe+stay+back/HE_...

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#143

Post by int_19h »

macintux wrote: post #114
Winsaucerer wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Have you watched the video? Its freeway speeds, a decently busy freeway, at a tunnel entrench that’s curving. Plus the car switched to the passing lane and abruptly stopped. The Tesla car switching and abruptly stopping was a big problem, and I can understand that first car having trouble, but for cars behind the first one they should ideally all be keeping a distance ready for suddenly hitting the brakes in an eme…

Even the recommended 2 second following distance is insufficient when the vehicle in front of you comes to an immediate halt and there’s no room to switch lanes.

The recommended distance is not 2 seconds at highway speeds. 2s is a rule of thumb for But, in any case, it is your obligation to leave as much space as it takes for you to stop your car before it hits the car in front, taking in consideration the speed of both vehicles before braking and the condition of the road. The rule of thumb is there for you as a baseline; blindly following it does not automatically mean that you're in the right if an accident results.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#144

Post by throwawayacc3 »

rootusrootus wrote: post #24
sneak wrote: post #10

Seems to me that the cars behind the Tesla are the omas at fault?

No, you cannot swoop into a lane and stand on the brakes. Nobody was following the Tesla until he put himself directly in front of an overtaking car with not enough room.

The Tesla had its turn signal on for a solid 5 seconds before impact. I blame the asshole that was in the far left lane going way too fast and not slowing down (just letting off the accelerator when the Tesla signalled would have prevented the accident) when someone is trying to enter. Then they brake way too late. Everyone behind that first vehicle is also to blame for following too closely at too fast of a speed and braking too late.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#145

Post by ericmay »

cameldrv wrote: post #136
ASalazarMX wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO the car signaled, changed lane and stopped without slamming the brakes. It didn't collide with anything, the pileup was formed by human drivers driving too close and too fast for their reaction time. If it had been a human driver that saw a kitten or a rock in the road, it would probably slam the brakes. I'm not defending Tesla's FSD, which I think is inferior for Tesla's reluctance to use LIDAR in addition to ca…

Stopping in the left lane of the Bay Bridge where the lanes are narrow and there is no shoulder is extremely dangerous. You can see the predictable results. If the sole problem was that the driver wasn't paying attention, the least it could have done would have been to put on the hazards and very slowly come to a stop. It would have been even better if it simply continued until there was a safe shoulder to stop on. T…

Right it's dangerous but it's equivalent to a flat tire or something causing any other car to stop. I only skimmed the video once but it looked like the car slowed down quite a bit, and as others mentioned a car slowing in front of you even in a congested area doesn't excuse others from following too closely or at too high of speed or not paying attention, because something could happen to any car causing it to stop somewhat quickly.

I was watching the video and the whole time I kept thinking that if I saw my car slowing down for no reason (and my Autopilot not FSD) has slowed down "ghosted" before I would have immediately taken control. Why didn't the driver do that?

> the car could play loud obnoxious noises inside the car when this happened.

I'll be interested to hear about what happened there but I know if you don't toggle the wheel or take action when on Autopilot the car will flash blue and beep at you to take control and if you keep doing it it'll disengage Autopilot until you stop and park the car.

I haven't used "FSD" much at all so I'm not 100% familiar with it but there seems like a host of problems here and the software powering "FSD" is but one of those. It saddens me though that people aren't asking the best question here which is why are we driving everywhere in the first place?

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#146

Post by throwawayacc3 »

barbazoo wrote: post #39
sneak wrote: post #10

Seems to me that the cars behind the Tesla are the omas at fault?

As others have pointed out in yesterday's submission. This could have been avoided if the cars behind them were leaving a more defensive distance to the other cars. In all directions, you can't just look ahead, you gotta observe what's going on around you.

Exactly this. Asking American drivers to do that is just too much apparently.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#147

Post by randerson »

MBCook wrote: post #109
eyelidlessness wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I rented a RAV4 recently for not one but two cross-US trips (Seattle VA). Its adaptive cruise control (like its lane assist) felt mostly familiar from previous rentals. It takes a lot of getting used to, if you’re from a time when cars just mechanically do what you tell them (failure modes aside). That said, I have the almost opposite take! The adaptive CC wasn’t perfect, but it had a perfect failure mode all but one…

I also like it because without having to stay so heavily focused on my speed I can spend more time on situational awareness of the other cars around me than I would with traditional CC or no CC.

I use ACC even in short bursts when merging onto the highway or changing lanes. Turn on ACC, then look over shoulder to check blind spot without worrying about the car in front slamming on brakes while my head is turned.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#148

Post by [deleted] »

roguecoder wrote: post #140

Video understanding engineer here. Tunnels and underpasses are the worst. They are a pain in the ass, because shadows mess with all the edge detection and motion models and anything else visual. Humans compensate by thinking "I'm in a tunnel: things are weird." But without a reasoning model that can take context into account, the computer is stuck. In the video from behind, you can see the shadow ahead of the car on…

[deleted]

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#149

Post by abruzzi »

wpietri wrote: post #73
thaumasiotes wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem isn't that disengaging the system is difficult. The problem is that deciding whether to disengage is difficult. If you're catching up to a slower car, maybe you should disengage the cruise control. Or maybe you shouldn't. You can't tell. This means that cruise control goes from being something that relieves stress on you to something that causes additional stress.

I'm not getting why you think you need to override the cruise control. I had that concern when starting out with ACC, but I set its follow distance to something generous enough that it would trigger a speed change before I got anxious about it failing to trigger the change. That let me learn to trust it. Although now that I think about it, I was using the Subaru ACC, so the dash has a visible indicator if it's tracki…

For me I think the issue is trust. Its not much different from what I feel sitting in the passenger seat of a car when anyone else is driving. I don't trust their driving so if it gets slightly trafficed, I start freaking out because I don't trust the driver. I also don't trust the ACC on my Subaru in more dense conditions so when it get busy and I start approaching the rear of another vehicle, I go into a mode where I start paying close attention to the approach thinking "at what point do I cut it off, and hit the brake?"

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#150

Post by int_19h »

amf12 wrote: post #124
jayd16 wrote: post #82

This is an honest question here but why is the pile up so bad if driving conditions were ideal? The next 6 drivers were not keeping a safe distance or paying attention?

Honestly, when you're driving, you sometimes only see the car in front of you. You might see it slowing down first, and you start slowing down, or continue because there is enough distance anyway. Then the car in front of you stops abruptly or crashes. Now you panic and brake hard. Maybe you still crash into the car in front. Even if you stop before crashing, this hard braking causes the car behind you to crash into…

> You might see it slowing down first, and you start slowing down, or continue because there is enough distance anyway.

That's the thing, though - if you were already at the distance limit, and the car in front of you starts slowing down, you have to also start slowing down right away to maintain said limit. If you do not, then it's already "not enough distance" by definition at that point, and you're the one responsible for that.

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