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An unorthodox scholar uses technology to expose Biblical forgeries

smithsonianmag.com

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Re: An unorthodox scholar uses technology to expose Biblical forgeries

#141

Post by lo_zamoyski »

lisper wrote: post #63
NateEag wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Naturalism insists that anything which is supernatural cannot be scientifically investigated, by definition. If you want to live your life via the scientific method, awesome - it's a really powerful technique for refining the accuracy of predictions. It can't ever rigorously conclude whether anything was ever divinely inspired, though.

> Naturalism insists that anything which is supernatural cannot be scientifically investigated, by definition. No, that is not what naturalism is. That would be circular. Naturalism is the philosophical stance that things that cannot be observed do not exist. Alleged supernatural phenomena cannot ever be definitively ruled out (because new observations may confirm their existence) but to date there has never been an…

> things that cannot be observed do not exist.

I cannot observe propositions or truth claims or numbers or...

Besides, what is "natural" and what is "supernatural" according to naturalists? [0]

[0] https://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/search?q=naturalism

Re: An unorthodox scholar uses technology to expose Biblical forgeries

#142

Post by dagw »

bambax wrote: post #111

The article is confusing and unclear and addresses many different topics at once. The digressions about bass-playing are frankly irrelevant. One could end up thinking all Dead Sea Scrolls are fakes. They are not. The Dead Sea Scrolls are real, but some fragments, sold as originals for millions of dollars to rich collectors, are modern forgeries. And bad fakes too. Dead Sea Scrolls are made of parchment; the fakes are…

I find the world of forgeries fascinating because it speaks of the human mind, how our desire to make something real blocks our perception and any kind of critical thinking.

That's most fascinating thing about this whole field. Supposedly smart people who no doubt consider themselves critical thinkers, many of whom have been wildly successful at business, keep getting tricked into spending millions on obvious forgeries.

I watched this documentary on wine forgery and it was the same thing there. People were paying $100+k for bottles that a simple 2 minutes google search would prove fake. Things like vintages from several years before the vineyard was founded, completely incorrect labels for the wine and vintage they where claiming and wines from years when that particular wine wasn't made.

It's clear that for most people the actual authenticity of the items in their collection means absolutely nothing to them. All that matters is that it's convincing enough that they can fool their peers (and themselves). As long as you never let an expert verify your collection, everything in it is in fact authentic. And once the scam was uncovered their anger wasn't so much directed at the people who scammed them but at the experts butting in a ruining everything.

Re: An unorthodox scholar uses technology to expose Biblical forgeries

#143

Post by npteljes »

hef19898 wrote: post #109
npteljes wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Isn't the whole bible a collection of fictional stories / articles? It isn't, according to my Catholic upbringing. It's the word of God, which he dictated through the people who originally wrote it. There are supposedly 1.345 billion Catholics. So, I think there are many people who care.

Truth is so, and I learned that, funny enough, during Catholic religion calsses in Bavaria of all places, that the bible as we know it was in fact not written by contemporary authors but much later by different authors. And multiple ones at that.

I was so surprised after learning all this (outside of chruch of course). That there are multiple authors, the compilations came later, and how it was translated multiple times later, and what version I had at home. Talk about the One Book!

Re: An unorthodox scholar uses technology to expose Biblical forgeries

#144

Post by lo_zamoyski »

shhdhsheh wrote: post #87
NateEag wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Naturalism insists that anything which is supernatural cannot be scientifically investigated, by definition. If you want to live your life via the scientific method, awesome - it's a really powerful technique for refining the accuracy of predictions. It can't ever rigorously conclude whether anything was ever divinely inspired, though.

And it can't even tell you if science is perhaps the unified tool from god to us. What if our world was designed on purpose including drugs like LSD to enlightenment and all earth religions are wrong because they stopped listening? But hey true we don't know :-)

This is just intellectually lazy, reheated New Age blather. Serious people engage intellectually (which means humbly) with the subject matter, beginning with rigorous training in philosophy. This isn't just something about which a nerd who has watched some schlock on PBS or a read a NYT bestseller can have something legitimate or valuable to say.

Re: An unorthodox scholar uses technology to expose Biblical forgeries

#145

Post by lo_zamoyski »

lapestenoire wrote: post #25
NateEag wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Naturalism insists that anything which is supernatural cannot be scientifically investigated, by definition. If you want to live your life via the scientific method, awesome - it's a really powerful technique for refining the accuracy of predictions. It can't ever rigorously conclude whether anything was ever divinely inspired, though.

The burden of proof rests on those who make fantastical claims, not on everyone else to disprove their claims.

And for the others to seriously consider the proof. What good is asking for proof if you then remain either oblivious to it or consistently refuse to engage with it?

Re: An unorthodox scholar uses technology to expose Biblical forgeries

#146

Post by gobrewers14 »

npteljes wrote: post #93
programmer_dude wrote: post #66

Isn't the whole bible a collection of fictional stories / articles? Who cares if some one tacks on extra "forged" chapters? What does forged even mean in this context?

>Isn't the whole bible a collection of fictional stories / articles? It isn't, according to my Catholic upbringing. It's the word of God, which he dictated through the people who originally wrote it. There are supposedly 1.345 billion Catholics. So, I think there are many people who care.

The Catholic Church declaring that a collection of fictional stories are the word of god and 1.345 billion people believing that does not make the collection of stories not fictional. You're appealing to authority and the populace.

Re: An unorthodox scholar uses technology to expose Biblical forgeries

#147

Post by hef19898 »

dagw wrote: post #142
bambax wrote: post #111

The article is confusing and unclear and addresses many different topics at once. The digressions about bass-playing are frankly irrelevant. One could end up thinking all Dead Sea Scrolls are fakes. They are not. The Dead Sea Scrolls are real, but some fragments, sold as originals for millions of dollars to rich collectors, are modern forgeries. And bad fakes too. Dead Sea Scrolls are made of parchment; the fakes are…

I find the world of forgeries fascinating because it speaks of the human mind, how our desire to make something real blocks our perception and any kind of critical thinking. That's most fascinating thing about this whole field. Supposedly smart people who no doubt consider themselves critical thinkers, many of whom have been wildly successful at business, keep getting tricked into spending millions on obvious forgeri…

I wonder if those "obvious" mistakes aren't intentional, like the spelling errors in spam mails...

Re: An unorthodox scholar uses technology to expose Biblical forgeries

#148

Post by waynecochran »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #83
waynecochran wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the reference. I have read Enoch 1 and it is a wild story that in my view is pure fantasy (e.g., giants were 300 cubits tall!?). I have always just assumed that Jude and Peter were quoting some authentic version from earlier and the version I have read was the creation of an imposter.

I mean, Genesis has people that are 900 years old, a talking serpent, a boat that can fit every type of animal, and you take issue with giants lol?

The style of the first 11 chapters of Genesis is very different than the remainder of the book. For instance, Genesis 3 is not meant to be historical prose like chapter 12 and following. Projecting my 21st century world view on an ancient text describing deep mysteries about creation and the fall of man is pure arrogance. For instance, the author of Genesis 3 doesn't expect the reader to think the serpent was merely a biological snake. This is a condensed poem that conveys truth in a much deeper way.

Re: An unorthodox scholar uses technology to expose Biblical forgeries

#149

Post by lo_zamoyski »

NateEag wrote: post #22
lapestenoire wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Naturalism insists that anything which is supernatural cannot be scientifically investigated, by definition. If you want to live your life via the scientific method, awesome - it's a really powerful technique for refining the accuracy of predictions. It can't ever rigorously conclude whether anything was ever divinely inspired, though.

> It can't ever rigorously conclude whether anything was ever divinely inspired, though.

https://www.catholic.com/tract/proving-inspiration

Re: An unorthodox scholar uses technology to expose Biblical forgeries

#150

Post by cto_of_antifa »

ogogmad wrote: post #128
bambax wrote: post #111

The article is confusing and unclear and addresses many different topics at once. The digressions about bass-playing are frankly irrelevant. One could end up thinking all Dead Sea Scrolls are fakes. They are not. The Dead Sea Scrolls are real, but some fragments, sold as originals for millions of dollars to rich collectors, are modern forgeries. And bad fakes too. Dead Sea Scrolls are made of parchment; the fakes are…

Thank you for this comment. I myself began to doubt whether any of the DSSes were real after reading the article, and your comment has assured me that they are. Additionally, those asides about the researcher's hobbies are indeed a trope of modern science documentaries, written by people who likely think that science isn't interesting enough on its own. Here is where I expressed my confusion: https://news.ycombinator…

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